Wire, How Much Is Enough?
woodguru
Posts: 76
The most hashed over and argued about equation in audio is "how much should I spend on wire".
There is no major rule that covers this
If you look at any major wire manufacturer and the grades of wire they make there are some very logical conclusions that can be made. Look at their line-up and ask yourself what does a $300 cable give you, how much more do you get for the $600, and where does it go as we look at $900/$1500/$3000/and more? This is a market driven by what you are going to compare to at price points. It goes beyond that in that we are in a consumer perception driven market, the company that makes a cable at $300 that compares to MIT's $1500 one won't and can't be taken seriously in the market of dealers if they don't price themselves at the performance point they are at.
This is what makes this hobby and industry so interesting and rewarding to me. Do your homework, listen to those who conduct comparisons in a meaningful way, and you can cut right through the chase to the prize at the end of the search. I started out dismayed and appalled at the tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars affluent audiophiles can spend only to be teased and not getting what they have heard at one point or another.
My bugaboos come from reviewers that don't know their butt from a hole in the ground. They have a modest system of decent budget components and they are asked to review a $2500 preamp that is head to head with the class leader $15k preamp and will outperform it when properly compared with equal ancilliary products. I have had $2500 preamps that outperformed my $10k BAT tube or Lamm at $14k. On the expensive products people don't blink an eye when you use a $3500 proven power cord, but who in their right mind uses a $3500 power cord on a $2000 preamp or a $3500 amplifier?
I do.
The wire allows the full performance to come through in stellar performing budget gear exactly as it does with components costing tens of thousands each. Also the best wire is cheaper than the best components but reveals far more resolution in budget equipment than can be heard with extreme equipment and mediocre mid grade wires.
Back to my point with how many grades of wire a big company like Nordost, MIT, Transparent, Kimber, Transparent, Audioquest, etc makes. It's a lot and they engineer them to "do" something as compares to that price level so that in quick A/B comparisons you are hearing an emphasis that makes them seem like they have higher resolution.
Resolution is resolution or clarity and doing something is coloration or adulteration, it's modifying the sound and that's what gets you into trouble as you try to evolve and upgrade other things. All of a sudden you hear the coloration of the cable where you couldn't before and you blame it on the new upgrade because you mentally already made up your mind the cable was the real deal.
Neutral companies make a $150 entry that is neutral and performs well against big names out to a grand, the mid grade is around $300 and compares to the big guns mid grades out into $1500 or so, and the $850 tears up the big guns at thousands of dollars. My favorite made an ultimate that goes against the stupidly exorbitant big guns flagships at $3k versus ludicrously priced cable.
The higher end $850 class sleepers have a place in your system that is way before tweak upgrades and more expensive components and speakers, and the difference is substantial, you just need to weed through to the real deals. Trying the entry to mid grade differential for yourself starts you on that path.
I am not a dealer so I don't have much to gain from pointing people in the right direction.
Now here's where my sense of humor comes through, and I do have one by the way. There will be some people wanting to "call me out" and say I'm full of bull. They will be republicans and once they do that there will be no salvaging their opinion no matter what I prove I have had or done in the stereo industry.
The tests I've conducted with 5 or more great amps with a dozen or more ultimate cables will blow you away. I've done the work.
Anyway a bit of time with my wife is in order, I'll post in depth comparison type stuff I've done with recognized names involved. I've sent equipment on behalf of manufacturers to Wayne Donally and other top echelon reviewers for tests I'll reference later.
There is no major rule that covers this
If you look at any major wire manufacturer and the grades of wire they make there are some very logical conclusions that can be made. Look at their line-up and ask yourself what does a $300 cable give you, how much more do you get for the $600, and where does it go as we look at $900/$1500/$3000/and more? This is a market driven by what you are going to compare to at price points. It goes beyond that in that we are in a consumer perception driven market, the company that makes a cable at $300 that compares to MIT's $1500 one won't and can't be taken seriously in the market of dealers if they don't price themselves at the performance point they are at.
This is what makes this hobby and industry so interesting and rewarding to me. Do your homework, listen to those who conduct comparisons in a meaningful way, and you can cut right through the chase to the prize at the end of the search. I started out dismayed and appalled at the tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars affluent audiophiles can spend only to be teased and not getting what they have heard at one point or another.
My bugaboos come from reviewers that don't know their butt from a hole in the ground. They have a modest system of decent budget components and they are asked to review a $2500 preamp that is head to head with the class leader $15k preamp and will outperform it when properly compared with equal ancilliary products. I have had $2500 preamps that outperformed my $10k BAT tube or Lamm at $14k. On the expensive products people don't blink an eye when you use a $3500 proven power cord, but who in their right mind uses a $3500 power cord on a $2000 preamp or a $3500 amplifier?
I do.
The wire allows the full performance to come through in stellar performing budget gear exactly as it does with components costing tens of thousands each. Also the best wire is cheaper than the best components but reveals far more resolution in budget equipment than can be heard with extreme equipment and mediocre mid grade wires.
Back to my point with how many grades of wire a big company like Nordost, MIT, Transparent, Kimber, Transparent, Audioquest, etc makes. It's a lot and they engineer them to "do" something as compares to that price level so that in quick A/B comparisons you are hearing an emphasis that makes them seem like they have higher resolution.
Resolution is resolution or clarity and doing something is coloration or adulteration, it's modifying the sound and that's what gets you into trouble as you try to evolve and upgrade other things. All of a sudden you hear the coloration of the cable where you couldn't before and you blame it on the new upgrade because you mentally already made up your mind the cable was the real deal.
Neutral companies make a $150 entry that is neutral and performs well against big names out to a grand, the mid grade is around $300 and compares to the big guns mid grades out into $1500 or so, and the $850 tears up the big guns at thousands of dollars. My favorite made an ultimate that goes against the stupidly exorbitant big guns flagships at $3k versus ludicrously priced cable.
The higher end $850 class sleepers have a place in your system that is way before tweak upgrades and more expensive components and speakers, and the difference is substantial, you just need to weed through to the real deals. Trying the entry to mid grade differential for yourself starts you on that path.
I am not a dealer so I don't have much to gain from pointing people in the right direction.
Now here's where my sense of humor comes through, and I do have one by the way. There will be some people wanting to "call me out" and say I'm full of bull. They will be republicans and once they do that there will be no salvaging their opinion no matter what I prove I have had or done in the stereo industry.
The tests I've conducted with 5 or more great amps with a dozen or more ultimate cables will blow you away. I've done the work.
Anyway a bit of time with my wife is in order, I'll post in depth comparison type stuff I've done with recognized names involved. I've sent equipment on behalf of manufacturers to Wayne Donally and other top echelon reviewers for tests I'll reference later.
You aren't done with wire and ready for upgrades and other tweaks until you are totally done with wire.
Keith 2006
Keith 2006
Post edited by woodguru on
Comments
-
Now here's where my sense of humor comes through, and I do have one by the way. There will be some people wanting to "call me out" and say I'm full of bull. They will be republicans and once they do that there will be no salvaging their opinion no matter what I prove I have had or done in the stereo industry.
The tests I've conducted with 5 or more great amps with a dozen or more ultimate cables will blow you away. I've done the work.
Anyway a bit of time with my wife is in order, I'll post in depth comparison type stuff I've done with recognized names involved. I've sent equipment on behalf of manufacturers to Wayne Donally and other top echelon reviewers for tests I'll reference later.
huh? not sure what that has to do with anything but uhhh ok. -
Me... grabs a bucket of popcorn...
No wait!!
Buys Orville Reddenbacher Popcorn Company...
I don't want to run out, as this is bound to get REEEEELY GOOOOD!
I may be wrong, but my troll detector is on high alert.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
sigh......no, please no.Polk Audio Surround Bar 360
Mirage PS-12
LG BDP-550
Motorola HD FIOS DVR
Panasonic 42" Plasma
XBOX 360[/SIZE]
Office stuff
Allied 395 receiver
Pioneer CDP PD-M430
RT8t's & Wharfedale Diamond II's[/SIZE]
Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music. ~Ronald Reagan -
John, pass the popcorn!
Truck setup
Alpine 9856
Phoenix Gold RSD65CS
For Sale
Polk SR6500
Polk SR5250
Polk SR104Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec. -
John, pass the popcorn!
ha, pass me a garbage truck full...... I'm in for a long ride....:D -
Hummmm I don't get it...You posted this WHY???
NM I know why... -
Quickest way to 100 posts!"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
-
^^^^ yep and the need to prove he is so much well versed in this hobby than any of us peons with 40 years experience in audio by posting BIG dollar amounts.
WE HAVE A NEW TEACHER FELLAS!!! Be prepared for the cusing, insulting, and whining about being thrashed and flamed by the old uninformed curmudgeons (although that later two have already started to occur) here! -
Not another totally pointless cable thread :rolleyes:.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I always thought the cable naysayers were Libertarians. Guess I learned something new today.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
-
Wood, who are you.................and why do we care? Who asked you? Name dropping and price dropping won't get you very far.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I believe Spec K's twin brother has been let out! The only difference is the writing style.
-
Wood, who are you.................and why do we care? Who asked you? Name dropping and price dropping won't get you very far.
H9
100 posts and you'll find out. Plus see above! -
Great Karma! IN!I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Anyway a bit of time with my wife is in order, I'll reference later.
Oh, that lucky lady. -
george grand wrote: »oh, that lucky lady.
rotflmao!!! -
Kinda like asking how much should you spend on a car...silly question none the less.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Quote:Originally Posted by woodguru
I'll reference later.
We're waiting with baited breath! -
I hope he used enough wire.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Goodluck with the sale!Truck setup
Alpine 9856
Phoenix Gold RSD65CS
For Sale
Polk SR6500
Polk SR5250
Polk SR104Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec. -
I thought all the mysteries of audio cables were solved last week? I guess he should of read more prior to going to all that work.DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
Cables and wire are both magic. Magic is expensive. Sell the house, buy cable, and PROFIT.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
I enjoyed reading your thoughts up till the point it became a politcal statement. There are plenty of sites for Dems to trash Repubs and vice versa. This isn't one of them. Get lost.
Gordon2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
I remember way back in the mid '70's the powers that be spent a ton of money to extend an interstate highway around our community. They had to acquire lots of property and were criticized at the time for overkill. But . . . very quickly the community grew and grew and grew. No further expenditures were needed beyond normal maintenance, and 3+ decades later that investment in infrastructure was a stroke of genius.
I'm sure it's not a perfect analogy, but good wires might be considered infrastructure. As most of us tend to upgrade our systems, wires considered overkill today will probably be appreciated over the years to come.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
I am surprised this hasn't been shut down yet...I thought the political twist at the end would have assured that. Talk about picking a fight. I am impressed with the civility of the replies thus far.Primary System
Polk Audio SDA SRS 2.3TL (RDO198,Sonicap/Dayton/Mills,CardasCCGR,Mye Spikes,DynamatX,Driver Rings,Ben's IC,Bi-Wired)
Polk Audio CSiA4 x2 (C)
Polk Audio FXiA6 (S)
Polk Audio RTiA3 (RS)
Polk Audio FXiA4 (FX)
Epik Sentinel x2
Yamaha RX-V3900
Rotel RB-1090
Rotel RMB-1095
NAD C565 BEE
Technics/KAB SL-1210M5G w/ Denon DL-160
Parasound Halo P7
OPPO BDP-83
Panasonic TC-P65V10 65" Plasma -
I'm using MIT Oracle Cables on my fisher price radio for my garage rig...is that good enough? Or maybe I should just bi wire you know for some added pop....
see I can name drop too do I get a cookie now?? -
RCFGuitars wrote: »I am surprised this hasn't been shut down yet...I thought the political twist at the end would have assured that. Talk about picking a fight. I am impressed with the civility of the replies thus far.
I suggest you check that attitude PAL!!! Who you callin' CIVIL!:rolleyes::p;)The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I'm using MIT Oracle Cables on my fisher price radio for my garage rig...is that good enough? Or maybe I should just bi wire you know for some added pop....
see I can name drop too do I get a cookie now??
Yep;)Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
Yep;)
SCORE! my manager might think I'm crazy though...I tried to eat my computer screen and it really didn't taste like cookie...
-
SCORE! my manager might think I'm crazy though...I tried to eat my computer screen and it really didn't taste like cookie...
Musta been a bad batch....:oPio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404
