Tuner Recommendation

dcmeigs

I have moved into a new location on the back side of a hill from the majority of the transmitters. It's a very difficult location for FM reception. I need to buy a really good tuner. I'll probably look for a second-hand vintage unit. Can someone knowledgeable about tuners please recommend a few good ones to select from?

dkg999

I would recommend you try a good antenna first, if you have the ability to put one up. I use a Godar FM antenna in my apt and it really improved my reception. At my farm I still have a good old fashioned mast type TV antenna with a FM splitter and the reception is incredible.

billbillw

Start by getting an outdoor antenna. If all your stations are in the same direction, then get a directional (yagi) style antenna. If that isn't good enough, then I'd start looking at tuners. There are literally hundreds of good tuners from the 70's-80's, and even early 90's that would work well. Many of them sell cheap too. FMtunerinfo is a great place to start learning.

mhardy6647

When it comes to antennae, bigger is usually better :-)
Hard to beat a Yagi; look at the link below for examples (skip the omindirectional crossed dipole at the top of the page; these offer very little over a 300 ohm twinlead half-wave dipole you can make yourself for a dollar). Yagi (highly directional reception pattern) plus rotor plus height is where you want to be. Multipath will be a problem based on your site description. Amplifiers are of limited value; they amplify bothsignal and noise.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/fm.htm

As to tuners; look for high sensitivity (at a reasonable s/n) and very good selectivity. Don't be ashamed to settle for good-quality mono reception, either (IMNSHO). The very best tuners aren't cheap :-( Kenwood (Trio outside the US until fairly recently) has made some excellent ones, as did Accuphase (a Kenwood spinoff often called "the McIntosh of Japan" and rightly so). McIntosh, of course made some outstanding tuners, as did Marantz (particularly Saul's original US company, as opposed the the later Superscope and Philips incarnations of the name), and Onkyo, and Sansui, Yamaha, and Sony.

For some droolworthy tuners, peruse www.thevintageknob.org

This oh-so-70s receiver, e.g., has a pretty "hot" tuner:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CR1000/CR1000.html

billbillw

Honestly, you'd be amazed how good some of the sub-$50 tuners are on Ebay. Just need to know what you are looking for. For less than $50, I have (over several years) tried out the following tuners, all of which were quite good:
Pioneer Elite F-51, Onkyo T-407, Onkyo T-4087, Sony ST-S550ES, and a Yamaha TX-900.

If you want an analog tuner, there are lots more choices. Just about anything from the 70's with a 4-5 gang tuner would work great.

mhardy6647

The Onkyos and some of the Sonys definitely attract less attention (and thus $) than they deserve. www.fmtunerinfo.com, while at one level a very useful and interesting site, has had a terrible impact on the perceived value (i.e., the going price!) of certain tuners...

billbillw

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The Onkyos and some of the Sonys definitely attract less attention (and thus $) than they deserve. www.fmtunerinfo.com, while at one level a very useful and interesting site, has had a terrible impact on the perceived value (i.e., the going price!) of certain tuners...

I certainly agree. Every tuner that was positively reviewed saw the average price increase significantly, but I think in general, the prices have all stabilized and come down to reasonable levels now (due to the economy).

mhardy6647

That's good. I am lucky enough to have (barely) good enough signal in my deep-suburban location to be able to get away with a tuner that has mediocre RF performance but really great sonics (and was cheap, too).

dcmeigs

OK, a lot of good ideas. I have a Yagi in the attic and it doesn't seem to do squat. I think I need to cart a receiver up there and see if I might just have a problem with the cabling or what have you. I have several tuners and receivers and none of them do too well so I think that lends credence to the cable problem idea. I'll do that first before I go out and look for a 4 gang tuner. And thanks for all the good links. That's some good reading!

mhardy6647

dcmeigs wrote: »

OK, a lot of good ideas. I have a Yagi in the attic and it doesn't seem to do squat...

Make sure there's no FM trap on it! :-)

Most VHF or UHF-VHF TV antennae have basically one dipole for the FM band (I think)... other than the altitude, they don't offer much over the aforementioned twinlead dipole. The purpose built FM Yagis (even the cheaper ones) are considerably better.

mhardy6647

pitdogg2

Mhardy66 had it right www.fmtunerinfo.com is a very good site. There are a multiple tuners that go for sparrow-feed but first and foremost a good antenna and rotor is a must. I ran a channel master deep fringe VHF/UHF/FM and ran 2 RG6 leads from it, one to the HDTV and one to my sansui 719 with no splitters. I pick up FM stations from about 75mi away 90% of the time and I live in a valley also. Look for the older analog tuners from Sansui,Kenwood,Pioneer and Yamaha. If digital is what you want then look at the Onkyo's,early Sansui and the new Sony HD tuner is about 100.00 and it got good reviews for being very selective and able to reach out to grab distant signals. If you want to spend a few hundred then look for the Carver 11a & 11b. Being in the valley doesn't help your cause at all. What you'll want to do is get the antenna outside and as high as you can. If you have metal siding that also affects your reception. The longer the run and the more splitters you use will also drop your signal enough that a lesser tuner just can't see it enough to lock in. Sansui's and Kenwoods analog models were very good at Dx'ing and now that the prices have gotten respectable enough to trade up. As everybody on PF knows well is most things 20+ yrs old could use new caps ,filters,resisters and for tuners a new power supply and alignment makes all the difference in the world

pitdogg2

very nice Sherwood mhardy6647 very nice indeed

nooshinjohn

dcmeigs wrote: »

I have moved into a new location on the back side of a hill from the majority of the transmitters. It's a very difficult location for FM reception. I need to buy a really good tuner. I'll probably look for a second-hand vintage unit. Can someone knowledgeable about tuners please recommend a few good ones to select from?

Carver TX-11a would be a good way to go.

Jetmaker737

I'm very happy with my Sansui TU-717. It gets great reception with just a cheap 300 Ohm dipole. I had it modified with new capacitors, op amps, wiring, diodes, etc. It really does sound good.

nooshinjohn

If you can score a Sansui TU-9900, you will be AMAZED!

pitdogg2

Jetmaker737 wrote: »

I'm very happy with my Sansui TU-717. It gets great reception with just a cheap 300 Ohm dipole. I had it modified with new capacitors, op amps, wiring, diodes, etc. It really does sound good.

mine is a Sansui Tu 719 that the original owner had new caps and Vishay resisters put in. I thought my old Carver Tx 11b was the stuff until i bought the Sansui, within a month I had Ebay'd the Carver and it more than paid for the Sansui:D I never knew FM could sound so good

pitdogg2

nooshinjohn wrote: »

If you can score a Sansui TU-9900, you will be AMAZED!

Or a Sansui Tu 919 both run about the same in price but the 9900 is perdy

Jetmaker737

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Or a Sansui Tu 919 both run about the same in price but the 9900 is perdy

Yep... I'd love to have either one of those. Just a little too pricey for me. Even though I did end up dropping a few bills on the 717 mods. It makes the tuner in my Oinker sound like a thin, scratchy, flat, dry ****!

dcmeigs

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Make sure there's no FM trap on it! :-)

Most VHF or UHF-VHF TV antennae have basically one dipole for the FM band (I think)... other than the altitude, they don't offer much over the aforementioned twinlead dipole. The purpose built FM Yagis (even the cheaper ones) are considerably better.

This just about sums up my experience working with the attic antennae tonight. The antennae is a 6 element Yagi. I took a receiver and a couple of small speakers up there and found that it was almost acceptable setting beside the Yagi but any cable length fouled up the signal. I used a signal amplifier and I got a stronger signal but the signal quality was no better. I tried a folded dipole, a home made square dipole, and alligator clip jumper leads. Results were all about the same (slight edge to the jumper leads). Tried another receiver and results were the same.

It's a real RF hole here. The car radio does badly here too and we get no Digital TV reception. It's not like I'm in the wilderness here, I'm only 10 miles from the Portland airport.

So I think I will need to find a real good purpose built FM (only) Yagi.

billbillw

dcmeigs wrote: »

This just about sums up my experience working with the attic antennae tonight. The antennae is a 6 element Yagi. I took a receiver and a couple of small speakers up there and found that it was almost acceptable setting beside the Yagi but any cable length fouled up the signal. I used a signal amplifier and I got a stronger signal but the signal quality was no better. I tried a folded dipole, a home made square dipole, and alligator clip jumper leads. Results were all about the same (slight edge to the jumper leads). Tried another receiver and results were the same.

It's a real RF hole here. The car radio does badly here too and we get no Digital TV reception. It's not like I'm in the wilderness here, I'm only 10 miles from the Portland airport.

So I think I will need to find a real good purpose built FM (only) Yagi.

Here is your FM Yagi.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=FM6&d=Antennacraft-FM6-6-Element-FM-Antenna-(FM6)&c=AM-FM
Might be similar to what you already have though.

Why don't you try to get the antenna outside and do a test. Remember that every splice/connection can loose 1-2dB of signal. If you have a lot of cable loss, you might consider an antenna preamp. It boost the signal right at the antenna and tends to have lower noise than the typical boosters.

Here is great one (I use this BTW, for more than 6 years now):
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-7777&d=Channel-Master-CM7777-Titan2-VHFUHF-TV-Antenna-Preamplifier-with-Power-Supply-(CM7777)&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=02057207774

camp21178

I bought an outside FM only antenna, ran 35 feet of uninterrupted RG-6 quadshield cable right to a Carver TX-2 tuner. I pick up my favorite station KQRS 92.5 FM from the Twin Cities 85 miles to the west in stereo. The antenna is about 23 feet up. This isn't the worlds greatest tuner but I think the antenna and cable is the most important component.

dcmeigs

billbillw wrote: »

Here is your FM Yagi.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=FM6&d=Antennacraft-FM6-6-Element-FM-Antenna-(FM6)&c=AM-FM
Might be similar to what you already have though.

Why don't you try to get the antenna outside and do a test. Remember that every splice/connection can loose 1-2dB of signal. If you have a lot of cable loss, you might consider an antenna preamp. It boost the signal right at the antenna and tends to have lower noise than the typical boosters.

Here is great one (I use this BTW, for more than 6 years now):
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-7777&d=Channel-Master-CM7777-Titan2-VHFUHF-TV-Antenna-Preamplifier-with-Power-Supply-(CM7777)&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=02057207774

I believe that is the antenna I have.

And, you make a good point. My antenna preamp is about 12 feet of cable run away from the Yagi. It simply amplifies a poor signal. If I moved it right to the antenna I might see a significant improvement. I say this because when I had the antenna setting on the bed, two feet from the receiver, the results were acceptable. Unfortunately, the WAF of a bed mounted Yagi antenna is... well I'm at a loss for words here-it just boggles the mind. Perhaps I should post a photo.

dcmeigs

camp21178 wrote: »

I bought an outside FM only antenna, ran 35 feet of uninterrupted RG-6 quadshield cable right to a Carver TX-2 tuner. I pick up my favorite station KQRS 92.5 FM from the Twin Cities 85 miles to the west in stereo. The antenna is about 23 feet up. This isn't the worlds greatest tuner but I think the antenna and cable is the most important component.

I think I'd need a 100 ft mast to get line of sight to the transmitter. Your application may actually be more advantageous than mine, even at 85 miles. I was wondering, with your meticulous installation, do you now get better FM reception on your tuner than on your car radio?

mhardy6647

dcmeigs wrote: »

Unfortunately, the WAF of a bed mounted Yagi antenna is... well I'm at a loss for words here-it just boggles the mind. Perhaps I should post a photo.

This is the funniest thing I have read on teh webs for quite some time!

pitdogg2

dcmeigs wrote: »

do you now get better FM reception on your tuner than on your car radio?

you really can't compare the two signals Radio stations transmit both vertical and horizontal signals for each application. It really sounds like you need the APS9 or APS13 antenna they run about 125.00 for the 9 and 225.00 for the 13. There is not any other antenna made that is better. The channel master pre and amp is very good one of the best others will just create noise. Also do not skimp on the RG6 it also makes a huge difference. Most of the USA made stuff (Belden and others) are Superior to the stuff made in China. The shielding and dielectric make a difference also. Most recievers in the past 20yrs the tuner is just a after thought they can't even begin to compare to a older analog tuner. It sounds like you got your work cut out for you do not give up you can make it happen. Join the tuner info group that is an off shoot of the fmtunerinfo.com site there're some EE's that are VERY knowledgable to your problem and they will help you get it right the more info you give them.

eeagle

Wow some great and valuable info and experience in this thread. I love the concept of OTA and it has been even more enhanced with the introduction of HD radio a few years back. I have the

Sony XDR-F1HD and highly recommend it.

I came close to getting the Sangean HDT-1x which is reviewed along with the Sony here

That said I am surprised no one has mentioned Internet streaming devices, like the Squeezebox line, or others made by Denon. They are especially useful in rural areas and literally let you listen to stations around the world with no antenna requirement at all. I am somewhat rural and it is a challenge to get several FM stations I prefer to listen to. They are a snap with Internet streaming; even the HD channels are streamed. Now I realize the compressed audio used in streaming is no comparison to actual OTA response, but it is far more listenable for me especially on the NPR talk shows than all the interference I get on OTA. I believe much of what is actually broadcast today OTA is this same compressed audio anyway....we have long ago seen the day of the DJ spinning a tune on a turntable or player at the local radio station.

The other option worth mentioning is to go the satellite radio route, XM for instance, of the music channels that come on DirecTV or your cable provider.

mhardy6647

The Sony HD tuner is indeed quite remarkable and apparently quite tweakable. It is tempting...

dcmeigs

eeagle wrote: »

That said I am surprised no one has mentioned Internet streaming devices.

And that is where I'm headed. I spoke to a shop that specializes in antenna installs and they said they couldn't guarantee reception in my area, even with their best equipment. So, the whole RF thing is just not working for me. $125 antennas might have made sense years ago, but streaming audio has it beat in my situation.

Now I'm listening to radio with an old Sony laptop I had set aside. It's got a really good sound card and it is doing a fine job. Total cost: zero dollars and zero cents.

But I will have a look at the sony product too. I was not aware if it.

The squeezebox is interesting too but I've used a variety of wi-fi products like the apple air-port and a wi-fi bridge and frankly, they are more trouble too me than they are worth. I hate the interuptions and the sound quality of the analog outputs is just not quite hi-fi. I would be happier with a hard wired setup. My modem is in the same cabinet as the stereo gear so it's easy to cable it all up without wi-fi.

Thanks everyone for all the comments.

Dave

camp21178

dcmeigs wrote: »

I think I'd need a 100 ft mast to get line of sight to the transmitter. Your application may actually be more advantageous than mine, even at 85 miles. I was wondering, with your meticulous installation, do you now get better FM reception on your tuner than on your car radio?

Yes I do get better reception on my home tuner than my car. The antenna cost about 50.00 at Radio Shack and it works very well. Its a directional model but I still get good reception from the rear direction.

billbillw

IMO, Internet/streaming radio could never replace actual broadcast in quality. Every time I've heard it, the quality was abysmal, not even up to 128Kbps MP3 levels.