Project Debut iii with Denon 160-DL

PSOVLSK

I'm having an impossible time getting this combo to work correctly. The problem is that the cartridge is sliding (skating?) across the record. I assume the problem is one of two things: 1) I'm not setting it up correctly or 2) the metal platter of the TT is interfering with the magnet in the cartridge.

I have the downforce set to 1.6g and the anti-skating weight is set in the correct position. I've even used an electronic scale to measure the weight.

It will play correctly very briefly...but long enough for me to tell the cart sounds REALLY good.

Any and all suggestions welcomed. Especially anyone who might be using the same combo.

Thanks.

madmax

Check to see the arm is not touching the LPs outer perimeter, possibly on a warp.

thsmith

Paul, sorry you are having problems. I just looked at the Debut manual on vinylengine. Did your TT come with as protractor for cart alignment ?

If not try the universal Baerwald listed under stupid protractors. http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

Also, according to the manual you can adjust azimut and it has to be set correctly in order to track correctly.

What about over hang, the manual does not show much. ?

Also, have no anti skating while balancing or measureing tonearm balance.

tcrossma

I'm certainly no cartridge expert, but the DL-160 is a MC cart, so it doesn't have a magnet?

ben62670

The magnet stays still while the coil moves.

george daniel

this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MIK9WcSDtU

PSOVLSK

I find the Pro-ject manual to be lacking. And I don't think the Denon manual is great. I've set up two other carts on this TT with minimal issues...maybe I just got lucky:o

Tracy you've probably nailed the problem in either the cart alignment or azimuth.

The owners manual doesn't say anything about overhang, but that may be because of the tonearm design.

No anti-skating used when balancing, etc.

Hopefully I can troubleshoot more on Wednesday night. As I mentioned, I've heard enough to know that I love the cart.

thsmith

According to the manual the overhang is 18.8mm but measured from where ?

THey do mention a protractor but I guess they do not provide one. You can print the one I linked above.

thsmith

george daniel wrote: »

this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MIK9WcSDtU

Good link George. Re-enforces balancing the tonearm before setting antiskate.

Looks like the table comes with a cart and there is not much documented for when you change carts.

PSOVLSK

thsmith wrote: »

Good link George. Re-enforces balancing the tonearm before setting antiskate.

Looks like the table comes with a cart and there is not much documented for when you change carts.

Yes, george, thanks for the link. I actually used it when I first bought the TT and it was invaluable.

Tracy you are correct. Not a lot of documentation should and individual want to upgrade carts from the original.

I'm honestly beginning to think I got lucky when I set up the Shure cart. I had a few minor issues, but nothing I wasn't able to work through without having to request the help of you guys who actually know what you're doing:D

thsmith

Paul, couple of links of people upgrading carts on the Debut.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/hi-fi-systems-separates/1167397-cartridge-stylus-upgrade-pro-ject-debut-iii.html

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1237381864

This one is a little scary, is your platter steel or something else? Several mentions of going to a MC cart and interaction preblems with steel platter
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98361&highlight=dp-300f

thsmith

The Denon manual cautions againest using the cart on metalic turntables.

PSOVLSK

PSOVLSK wrote: »

I assume the problem is one of two things: 1) I'm not setting it up correctly or 2) the metal platter of the TT is interfering with the magnet in the cartridge.

thsmith wrote: »

The Denon manual cautions againest using the cart on metalic turntables.

While I'm I'm still not discounting point #1 above, I think point #2 is causing the "skating" issue.

Don't laugh, but I just played a record using a second record underneath as a buffer and I didn't have an issue. It's still not exactly dialed in, but I think this determines the main cause of my problem.

Tracy, thanks for your help. I've currently only read one of the links you posted, but I'm going to read the others now. Much appreciated!

hearingimpared

Paul the anti-skating feature on the that tonearm is far from accurate. I set up a Music Hall 9 with that same type of anti-skating type. I couldn't get it to track correctly on any of the little grooves. It needed to be set off the groove before it would track correctly. I've also heard that it might be necessary to remove the anti-skating weight entirely with that type of configuration to get it track properly. You may have to move the line to several different places on the post before you get the correct anti-skating force.

IMHO it's a $h%%y way to set up anti-skating but VPI uses the same method on their JMW tonearms and it seems to work just fine.

BTW; Make sure that both the plinth and the platter are absolutely level before messing with the anti-skating line. Also check the height of the tonearm, if its too low it can cause the arm to skip across the record.

hearingimpared

thsmith wrote: »

The Denon manual cautions againest using the cart on metalic turntables.

Really? No kidding? I've never heard that a metal platter causing a cartridge to just ride over the record. Hmmmm . . . you learn something new everyday.

Hold on there. . . Denon must be using some really cheap material for this to happen. Most, if not all starter tables and some high end tables use some sort of metal or metal composite in their platters. Something just doesn't sound kosher here. Case in point, my platter is a composite of delrin, aluminum, stainless steel and lead. The delrin being the top of the platter.

hearingimpared

thsmith wrote: »

Paul, couple of links of people upgrading carts on the Debut.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/hi-fi-systems-separates/1167397-cartridge-stylus-upgrade-pro-ject-debut-iii.html

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1237381864

This one is a little scary, is your platter steel or something else? Several mentions of going to a MC cart and interaction preblems with steel platter
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98361&highlight=dp-300f

That last link is interesting. The base that the platter sets on IIRC is plastic or a plastic composite. That right there would keep a metal platter from having any kind of magnetic properties. I also believe, and don't hold me to this, that the platters are made from aluminum and/or stainless steel neither of which have magnetic properties.

This is an interesting problem but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fishline/weight anti-skating configuration and possibly some leveling issues.

hearingimpared

PSOVLSK wrote: »

I find the Pro-ject manual to be lacking. And I don't think the Denon manual is great. I've set up two other carts on this TT with minimal issues...maybe I just got lucky:o

Tracy you've probably nailed the problem in either the cart alignment or azimuth.
The owners manual doesn't say anything about overhang, but that may be because of the tonearm design.

No anti-skating used when balancing, etc.

Hopefully I can troubleshoot more on Wednesday night. As I mentioned, I've heard enough to know that I love the cart.

Cartridge alignment, MAYBE, but the azimuth being out-of-whack wouldn't cause that type of problem.

jerryj12

I have that same table. Put a Denon 110 MM on it and it would play about half the record and then fall down and touch the record. I ordered the Denon DL 103r MC, it should be in today. I will post the results.

hearingimpared

Jerry, I'm not sure what you mean by "then fall down and touch the record?" Do you mean it would fall of its mounts? The suspension collapsed?

audiobilly

hearingimpared wrote: »

That last link is interesting. The base that the platter sets on IIRC is plastic or a plastic composite. That right there would keep a metal platter from having any kind of magnetic properties. I also believe, and don't hold me to this, that the platters are made from aluminum and/or stainless steel neither of which have magnetic properties.

This is an interesting problem but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fishline/weight anti-skating configuration and possibly some leveling issues.

The platter is "1,3 kg balanced steel platter with felt mat". Taken from the web site.
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debut&cat=turntables&lang=en
FWIW, I was advised to upgrade to the "Acryl-It Platter" if you use a MC Cart.

Fongolio

Having the table level is the critical first step in cartridge set up.

hearingimpared

audiobilly wrote: »

The platter is "1,3 kg balanced steel platter with felt mat". Taken from the web site.
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debut&cat=turntables&lang=en
FWIW, I was advised to upgrade to the "Acryl-It Platter" if you use a MC Cart.

I would go with the acrylic platter just for the improvement of SQ. I'm shocked that Project would make a platter that would cause problems with any cartridge made but hey if that what it is then that's what it is.

PSOVLSK

audiobilly wrote: »

I was advised to upgrade to the "Acryl-It Platter" if you use a MC Cart.

Almost ordered one last night, but decided to sleep on it. Ended up ordering one today. Worst case scenerio is it doesn't help the issue I'm having with the Denon but I'll still have a nice platter for my old Shure cart. Best case scenerio is that it solves the problem...and I have a nice, new platter:D

thsmith

PSOVLSK wrote: »

Almost ordered one last night, but decided to sleep on it. Ended up ordering one today. Worst case scenerio is it doesn't help the issue I'm having with the Denon but I'll still have a nice platter for my old Shure cart. Best case scenerio is that it solves the problem...and I have a nice, new platter:D

Paul, if it helps maybe we can get together and go over the setup.

hearingimpared

PSOVLSK wrote: »

Almost ordered one last night, but decided to sleep on it. Ended up ordering one today. Worst case scenerio is it doesn't help the issue I'm having with the Denon but I'll still have a nice platter for my old Shure cart. Best case scenerio is that it solves the problem...and I have a nice, new platter:D

Clear Audio Twister Clamp? How's it doing? With that acrylic platter you will hear some major improvements in SQ.

PSOVLSK

thsmith wrote: »

Paul, if it helps maybe we can get together and go over the setup.

If I still have problems after getting the new platter I will have to take you up on the offer. Thanks!!

hearingimpared wrote: »

Clear Audio Twister Clamp? How's it doing? With that acrylic platter you will hear some major improvements in SQ.

Twister with the shims is very nice. I'm glad I spent the extra $$ for the Twister instead of settling for something less. With all the extra money I've put into this entry level TT I could actually have a nice one:p

audiobilly

So what is the verdict?

PSOVLSK

Acryl-It was out of stock. I should get it next week. Until then, it's cd's and PS3 media server.

hearingimpared

PSOVLSK wrote: »

Acryl-It was out of stock. I should get it next week. Until then, it's cd's and PS3 media server.

You're gonna love what that platter does for your SQ Paul.:)

thsmith

Joe, I queried Project on the overhang for this TT and here is what they replied. Not sure I understand what they mean.

Question:how to set the overhang to 18.5mm, where do I take measurements
> on the tonearm?

Answer:The overhang is the distance from the stylus tip beyond the spindle of the record player.

hearingimpared

Pffft Lot of help they were.

While it is true that if you were able to place your tonearm all the way next to you spindle and then SOMEHOW measure the distance from the far end of the spindle to the tip of your stylus, you would adjust it so that it the distance from the spindle to the tip of the stylus measures 18.5 mm.:rolleyes: Makes sense Mr. Project Customer Service Rep but how do I do that?:rolleyes: Silly isn't it.:rolleyes: DUH!!!! I hope that was an email response and not a human being you contacted.

Tracy, you should call Project and ask them if they have a protractor they can send you so that you can set the cartridge up, over hang and all.

Here's free protractors that you can print out and use to set up the cartridge.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

http://www.styli.co.nz/protractor.pdf

http://www.vinylengine.com/guru-protractor-analysed.shtml

If Project wants to charge for the protractor, get the price and then take a look at some of the ones you can find on the internet, such as MFSL Geodisc, it is very easy to use and is very accurate. The really good thing about it is that it is cheap and can be used over and over again without any changes made by wear and tear like with the free paper protractors.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300432187959&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WXI7&GUID=c9a3f0151210a09c19f4b0a4ffd0c5da&itemid=300432187959&ff4=263602_263622

There are lots of protractors out there and some are quite expensive and some are very complicated but I would think Paul would want to go the cheapest and easiest route.