Usefulness of power conditioners

On3s&Z3r0s

I was wondering what the general consensus is on the usefulness of power conditioners. I was having a conversation recently with the proprietor of a vintage hi-fi shop about getting good bass in 2-channel audio and he asked me if I wanted a free subwoofer. I saw a set-up coming, and he told me if I was using a power strip or power conditioner to take the amp off of it and run it directly from the wall outlet. I went home and tried it and there was an unmistakable improvement in the bass! To be fair, the amp had been plugged into a $50 power strip, not a power conditioner.

Curious, I took my Furman out of my home theater and tried it in between the wall and the amp, and it had a negative effect on the bass too. Not nearly as bad as with the power strip, but it definitely didn't do the sound any favors.

Anyway, I'm still using the Furman with my HT setup because my fronts run as "small" most of the time for theater applications and the subwoofer is plugged into a wall outlet on the other side of the room, and I wouldn't have enough outlet space without it. Similarly, in my 2-channel rig I'm still using the power strip for everything else but the amp.

So, has anyone else tried this and noticed a difference? I'd imagine as you spend more on a power conditioner this is less of a problem, but is there ever really a justification for spending big cash on a power conditioner in this case?

Knucklehead

Ive heard that you should plug the AMPs directly into the wall for grounding purposes....havent tried it tho.

On3s&Z3r0s

Well, theoretically a properly working and grounded powerstrip or power conditioner should pass its ground connection to whatever was connected to it via a 3-prong plug. But, if you have coax from a grounded cable or satellite system also connected to it then I think you'd increase the chances of ground loop hum. I don't run my cable through my power conditioner tho.

thuffman03

I have done a little research on this and most high end amps have power conditioning built into them. I can't say I have heard a difference when I plug into the wall directly or through my surge protector but it makes some sense to me.

Ern Dog

I heard a slight improvement when I plugged all my gear into the wall directly vs. plugging my gear into a PS Audio Quintet.

Zitro

My NAD sounds a bit thinner when plugged into my surge protector as opposed to the wall outlet, but I'd much rather settle for the slight decrease in SQ than end up with a fried amp (surges are more common in apartments).

On3s&Z3r0s

Zitro wrote: »

My NAD sounds a bit thinner when plugged into my surge protector as opposed to the wall outlet, but I'd much rather settle for the slight decrease in SQ than end up with a fried amp (surges are more common in apartments).

Yeah, that's a good point. I did some remodeling recently and while I was messing around with the electrical I installed a whole house surge arrestor at the panel. Not much lightning in the Seattle area, but all of the power lines are above ground in my part of town. We lose power completely at least 3 times a year and get dips and surges whenever the wind blows, so I'm sure I'd be using something at the wall too if the protector at the service panel didn't give me a little peace of mind.

But if the point is mainly protection, I'd be really surprised if the $600 Furman I've got in my HT is giving me any more protection than that $50 surge protector (it's rated to something like 4,000 joules with overvoltage going to both ground and neutral). So basically, I spent an extra $550 on something that's not improving the sound of my system at all, probably isn't protecting my gear any better and gives me two extra outlets over the surge strip that I'm not using anyway. That's a bummer unless I'm missing some benefit of the thing that hasn't been apparent so far. (Oh, it does have some great little LED flashlights that help you find the volume knob in the dark. Makes me wish I didn't have a backlit remote so I could use those. )

Does anyone know of equipment that really benefits from power conditioning? I didn't notice that my video went to hell when I had it pulled out of my home theater. (Not that I could tell since most of my Comcast channels are various degrees of craptastic.)

Toolfan66

My power conditioner cleaned everything up, and I have my amp plugged into my PC. The sound is crisp and clean and I have no problem with bass. I have A/B tested both ways, and the hissing sound I was getting is gone. Even my turntable benifited me having a PC, I put the ground wire to the PC and bam everything was cleaner..

On3s&Z3r0s I have comcast HD and putting in a PC made a huge difference in PQ, and I had been using one of those power strips (they went into the trash)

If you have a $600 furman and are getting no results? that just doesn't make sense to me.. Even the cheaper Monster PC that I got here in our FM for $60 I put in our bedroom made a huge impact in PQ..

cnh

Dirty power and PConditioners...well...I really have little to say on this subject--the jury, me, is still out on this though I do accept that many have gotten great results. On the other hand I would tell anyone to buy an RF filter to put on the line between their TV cable and anything else that would probably help keep the main problem in AV rooms (RF noise) from affecting everything else. As for spending several hundred to a thousand on a PC....I'm still mulling that over. At some point I will just 'borrow' one of these and decide if it does anything for my system or not. If I can't hear anything then I'll just spend all that money on some other upgrade--AS WE ALL DO....effing tweakers, all of us!

cnh

cheddar

On mid-level to high priced PCs, they usually have outlets specifically for power amps. These outlets have fewer filters on them, but still protect your equipment from power surges, etc.

Sometimes they are specifically labeled. But with the Furmans, I believe some have audio, audio/video, and video outlets. You'll want to plug amps into the audio outlets.

jon s

I have noticed an improvement using Richard Grays PCs and also have a couple of Monster HTPS 7000s. I live at the end of the line for the power company (no homes past me) so my power is very noisy.

polkatese

cheddar wrote: »

On mid-level to high priced PCs, they usually have outlets specifically for power amps. These outlets have fewer filters on them, but still protect your equipment from power surges, etc.

Sometimes they are specifically labeled. But with the Furmans, I believe some have audio, audio/video, and video outlets. You'll want to plug amps into the audio outlets.

Yep. That is the case with my Panamax 5500 Regenerator PC.

Polkie2009

Have heard a lot of good things about the Richard Gray units and Panamax equipment. Anyone here have any experience with the HT units SurgeX makes?

On3s&Z3r0s

I guess maybe the power here is cleaner than I give it credit for (aside from the periodic weather issues I mentioned). The noise floor on my amp is very quiet even with it going right into the wall.

As for the Comcast PQ issues I don't know if I could identify the difference between issues due to noise in the power lines and just plain old compression artifacts. It's mostly during fast action or quick scene cuts, so I'm guessing those are compression issues more than power problems. Couldn't hurt to try an RF filter to see if that does anything.

The Furman does have labeled outlets for different purposes and switched / unswitched modes. It's the only PC I've owned so I don't have any basis for comparison, but I'm not complaining about it in particular at all, just think in my case I spent some money on something I didn't really need. It sounds like they do make a big difference in some cases.

Now... if you want to talk about something really unnecessary and irritating: AFCI circuit breakers, now required by code!

headrott

I added an Equitech 1RQ to my system about 3 months ago and it improved the sound quality by many times. The noise floor was lowered, the bass was improved as well as the high end. They are somewhat expensive balanced power conditioners, but well worth the money (IMO). I highly recommend trying one out in your system.

Greg

http://www.equitech.com/

heiney9

If you scroll down to the bottom of this page and the "similar threads" pane is open you can see no less than (5) other threads asking the same question. There are lot's of threads on this subject.

I've written about my experiences many times and I just don;t have th energy to do it once again. Get your search on as this has been a topic well covered many times.

H9

On3s&Z3r0s

Sorry, I guess it didn't really need another thread, but the bass thing in particular did surprise me so I was interested in discussing that. But I read the similar links and did some searching as recommended... from skimming it still sounds to me like fairly even numbers of people say a PC hurt / helped 2 channel sound. At least until you get into the class of PCs costing 2 grand and up. In my system that would be like putting $2K rims on a bondo'd chevy nova. (Well, maybe not quite that bad, but still.)

It sounds like a power conditioner made a bigger difference for more people in picture quality. It didn't seem to make any difference in my case, but then my HT pretty much has a 20-amp circuit all to itself. I made sure the lighting in the room went on a different circuit. Sounds like most people's issues come from other stuff like lights and motors on their circuit.

So, my bad for spending to solve a problem I didn't have, but I'll be keeping the Furman anyway. It doesn't seem to be hurting anything in the HT setup, and I'd just have to put an XBox in its place if I got rid of it. I agree with the advice on some of the threads to try before you buy if at all possible with these things. Could save a bundle if there's no discernible improvement.

heiney9

FWIW, I hear no ill effects from my power conditioner but I do feel there is a blacker background and perhaps a slightly deeper soundstage. The only real way to know is to try one in your system and see if you get any benefits.

Mine regulates voltage, conditions, eliminates RFI/EMI and just seems to work while staying completely out of the way.

H9

RuSsMaN

Good, big, solid copper into the wall in the 2ch rig. If there is even a threat of storms, it gets unplugged. Honestly, I don't care what 'guarantee' anyone offers - if lightning hits you directly, it's going right through anything in it's path. When unplugged, I even make sure it's a good couple of feet away from the outlet(s) in case it wants to try and make the 'jump'.

For whole house audio, and the home theater, the power conditioners (Furman and AR) offer convenience of hookup for me. I think it boils down to simply if you need power conditioning or not, I don't seem to here, but I've got friends where it has made a difference, and cleaned up the overall sound.

Cheers,
Russ

IRLRaceFan

On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »

(Not that I could tell since most of my Comcast channels are various degrees of craptastic.)

Isn't this truth! Even in Michigan...

mantis

Over the years I have used RG power centers , Panamax , Monster , Tributaries , Transparent audio , Furman(before the merge with Panamax , and never once had a decrease in bass or any performance. If anything the system always seemed to perform at it's peak.
We always spec a 20 amp circuit when installing a new system. This also helps keep things working at there best.

You should always use a power center that is designed to work with the gear you wanna plug into it. The higher quality center the better chances of best performance.

On a side note I have connected massive Krell Mono blocks to power centers as well as massive Subs and never once lost performance.

polkatese

^^ Dan is on the money. With Panamax it clearly stated that the designated outlet for power amplifier or subwoofer have no current restrictions.

20hz

I think power conditioners are not that needed unless you have noise problems in the A/C and it will take big bucks to solve that .
I have a Panamax the reason I bought it is it has a turns on my amps via trigger off my AVR plus it turns on the dvd payer etc, I have a voltage problem here I have seen a NEIGHBORS vacuum cleaner drop my voltage below 90 volts , so when that happens the panamax shuts it down (it also has overvoltage protection .Panamax covers ANYTHING plugged into it and they are in ?california? .
My releys were acting up after 6 years so panamax sent me a new 5100EX for $25 .
Its a great company plus I dont have to get up to turn the amps on !!

MillerLiteScott

I have a Panamax 5100 and everything is plugged into it except my Integrated amp and my Subwoofer. I had my Integrated amp plugged into the conditioner and then I took it out and plugged it into a industrial (not audio grade) outlet on the same dedicated circuit as the conditioner. I noticed an improvement in bass slam and general SQ improvement. I have also noticed a slightly better picture on my TV when plugged into the conditioner vs. plugged into the wall so I think it is component dependent and based on current requirements.

My experience and 2 cents.

Scott

20hz

MillerLiteScott wrote: »

I have a Panamax 5100 and everything is plugged into it except my Integrated amp and my Subwoofer. I had my Integrated amp plugged into the conditioner and then I took it out and plugged it into a industrial (not audio grade) outlet on the same dedicated circuit as the conditioner. I noticed an improvement in bass slam and general SQ improvement. I have also noticed a slightly better picture on my TV when plugged into the conditioner vs. plugged into the wall so I think it is component dependent and based on current requirements.

My experience and 2 cents.

Scott

My plug setup is similiar, I use a sony ES 333 for a processor so it is not plugged into the 5100 (cant it triggers it) .
THe 5100 has no componant (RGB) plugs so I plug the dvd directly into the TV .
I am surprised the sound diff is better not running the int amp through the panamax !