Please don't laugh at me.

Echosphere

hearingimpared wrote: »

Echo you contradicted yourself twice. First you say they are are a scam then you say you heard a difference, then you say you heard a "very nice, open soundstage with less noise."

Which is it?:)

Snake oil isn't about price it's whether the products does what the manufacturer claims it does.


BTW which Mark Levinson piece to you get for a little over $1K?

Yeah, I can see why its like I contradicted myself there.

I understand what you mean by snake oil, I bought some stuff one time to clean my foggy headlights for $25 as it was supposed to be some magical patented formula. Got a little vial of blue stuff with a hand written label on it. Found out later it was simply brake fluid....

But, I also think of "snake oil" in the cable industry as "pricing". I simply think a lot of it is over priced. WAY overpriced. K-daugh does make a good point that alot of the times it is the same cable wrapped in nicer shielding. But then, some of it, like MIT and Kimber are pretty good stuff. And their raw materials cost them alot.

15 years ago I would have bought, and did buy, $500 cables. They were good and sounded better. But, now, 15 years later, for ME that isn't worth it in my mind after seeing what else I could buy for that cash. So, what I was trying to say was that if I find a pair for $100 used, I grab them ASAP as that is what the better sound is worth to MY EARS NOW. I wouldn't pay $400 more though, as I consider that difference the snake oil. Understand if this doesn't make sense as I'm not sure quite how to say it.

I paid $800 for a mint, single owner, Mark Levinson ML-9. 100 watts per channel of ML loving. There's one in mint condition on Audiogon for $1095 that hasn't sold for a week now, so you can get them for a decent price these days. I would gather that the older ML gear isn't as worth much due to the fact that repairs on them are crazy. ML, now owned by Harmon Intl, charges $500 bench fee just to open it!

Wait, this is actually what I was trying to say... I used to have a Carver M400t Cube Amp $200 and had bought $500 cables 15 years ago. Now, I would know better to take that $500, sell the Carver $200, and spend $100 more for the ML and then buy a $50 pair of cables.

And the sound, would be much, much better!

It's all about "Opportunity Costs". Meaning, what could I do with my money in the next best venture?
If I stick with the $500 cables I get marginally better sound. But if I look at saving it up a bit and shop around I might find another piece of used gear or newer tech that really rocks!

Cable companies have come to position themselves as actual GEAR, just like McDonalds markets itself as a RESTAURANT. To make it appear as if they are on equal footing with real components, which they simply aren't. They are accessories for hooking gear together.

I just think that cable companies do try and convince people that spending half a grand will give them such an AMAZING better sound. "better bass, depth, less noise, it's like having a new amp! See what it will do to your system!" etc. They usually are better cables with better build quality, but at what cost?
Will an $800 cable sound better than getting rid of, say an inexpensive NAD amp, and buying an ML amp? I would say no.
And that, to my ears and wallet, is the "snake oil".

tonyb

No offense,but your not comparing apples and apples. You can't say the cable doesn't matter when you switch gear upwards. How about throwing some nice cables on the ML and see if you hear a difference? Nice cables can be had for well under 500 clams. Look at any recording studio, musicians gear, etc, and tell me how many Rat shack IC"s or Home depot 14 ga. you see. The better your gear,the better your cables need to be to translate that sound to your speakers. Everyone hears differently,thats fine,but don't knock it untill you try it. Snake oil exists no doubt,in just about any product we can buy,one bad cable company doesn't make the rest bad as well.

Echosphere

tonyb wrote: »

No offense,but your not comparing apples and apples. You can't say the cable doesn't matter when you switch gear upwards. How about throwing some nice cables on the ML and see if you hear a difference? Nice cables can be had for well under 500 clams. Look at any recording studio, musicians gear, etc, and tell me how many Rat shack IC"s or Home depot 14 ga. you see. The better your gear,the better your cables need to be to translate that sound to your speakers. Everyone hears differently,thats fine,but don't knock it untill you try it. Snake oil exists no doubt,in just about any product we can buy,one bad cable company doesn't make the rest bad as well.

I didn't say that cable doesn't matter when switching gear upwards. I do agree adding those $500 cables I had, to my ML now, would be sweet, and sound great to my ears.

THAT IS WHY I WOULD SHELL OUT $100 ASAP IN AN INSTANT FOR THEM!
Sorry to yell, but I've said this now three times.

Btw, I am knocking it, because I have tried it, thank you very much.

I agree that with better gear, get better cables. But up to what price point?

You're talking a bit theory here, while I'm trying to explain application.

In theory, better quality cables such as those above $500 do give better sound, up to a certain point of diminishing returns, where one should stop.
In reality I cannot afford to spend $500 on an $800 amplifier, nor do I physically have that money. Plus my wife would probably slap me if I did that.

Also, in reality, if I did have that $500 extra I would sell my ML-9 and buy an ML 23. With 200 watts per channel. Twice the power. And still keep my $25 Vampire wires.

If you can really wrap your head around this, in reality, true reality, with bills, set income, significant others who hate hifi gear, and the ability to actually take THAT cable money and spend it on better gear, then NO better cables don't necessarily sound AMAZINGLY better, at least not me.

Because in the end, I wouldn't be owning them at that price point!

Sorry, this probably sounded grumpy. Don't worry I love ya.

hearingimpared

K-daugh wrote: »

Z

Ok smart guy its impossible to justify five hundred dollar cables.....because there is only a certain amount of materials that can go into a wire .....not to mention stranded copper is stranded copper as long as its pure and oxygen free what's the difference from three four hundred dollar copper to ten dollar copper....really its common sense....I build houses for a living ......its like trying to justify putting super duper electrical lines in your walls...besides for the difference in gauge ...they are all the same

K-daugh wrote: »

Five hundred dollar placebo

No need to get snippy! Your profession doesn't give you any crediblilty as to to how differntly designed cables can shape the sound of the music.

You still haven't answered my question about your experience in listening to different cables, let alone a $500 cable. If monoprice is all you've heard then you are missing out on a lot.

tonyb

You can do a search on cables, we've beaten that topic to death and it usually gets ugly. No need for that here,so lets just agree to disagree and move on. The important thing is your enjoying what your hearing,so rock on.

K-daugh

no hard feelings here ......I have a certain soft spot for any kind of gear that is good.....and no i haven't heard five hundred dollar cables ....1 im still young have not got there yet....2 live in the real world where it just does'nt make sense to spend that on cables when my 1 year old needs to eat......that being said im sorry i got your panties in a bunch(whom it may concern)

Echosphere

K-daugh wrote: »

no hard feelings here ......I have a certain soft spot for any kind of gear that is good.....and no i haven't heard five hundred dollar cables ....1 im still young have not got there yet....2 live in the real world where it just does'nt make sense to spend that on cables when my 1 year old needs to eat......that being said im sorry i got your panties in a bunch(whom it may concern)

Then don't get your dick in a bind.

If you haven't heard $500 cables (which is ok, really!) then why are you arguing with us? Or are you just another Masshole?

I hope not as you sound sincere. Peace and best wishes to you and your loved ones.

mdaudioguy

K-daugh wrote: »

no hard feelings here ......I have a certain soft spot for any kind of gear that is good.....and no i haven't heard five hundred dollar cables ....1 im still young have not got there yet....2 live in the real world where it just does'nt make sense to spend that on cables when my 1 year old needs to eat......that being said im sorry i got your panties in a bunch(whom it may concern)

Yeah, feeding the baby vs. upgrading speaker cables... I'm glad that choice was easy for you.

HB27

There's a lot of difference in the materials cables are made from. Therefore a huge difference in price.
Cheap copper cables sound different than long strand copper cables.
Shielding, manufacturing processes, termination, all influence sound and cost. Shielding can be as important for sound quality as any other property of a cable.
I like Synergistic Research cables. I have3 pairs and they run close to the $500 mark each you're referring to. They make a huge difference in sound especially on my phono section.
Many wouldn't know the difference in a quality cable or quality recording as far as that goes. That's why so many low dollar systems are marketed.
To each his own. I happen to be cursed with an appreciation of quality music reproduction and a good set of ears.
I don't drink cheap booze, smoke cheap cigars, or listen to cheap sounding audio systems.
$500 for a pair of cables is as reasonable as a $5K amp or pre or turntable. It depends on how far you want to take your system and how detailed you want to tweak it out.
Saying you run a $5K amp why would you want to run it on $5.00 cables???
Snake oil? I'm sure some cables aren't a bit better than the $5.00 cables from monoprice. On the other hand, listen to some quality cables and you'll wake up to the fact that quality cables DO make a difference.

K-daugh

Of course I'm a mass hole apparently I'm deaf too ..........look guys I always love a good debate ......its who I am .....nothen like a ball busten ......but hey you guys win ok...I'm jealous......I can't afford good cable......ill hang my head in defeat and shame....please don't knock monoprice they are my savior !!!!! And in true boston form....F anyone who thinks different.!!!!!

Echosphere

K-daugh wrote: »

Of course I'm a mass hole apparently I'm deaf too ..........look guys I always love a good debate ......its who I am .....nothen like a ball busten ......but hey you guys win ok...I'm jealous......I can't afford good cable......ill hang my head in defeat and shame....please don't knock monoprice they are my savior !!!!! And in true boston form....F anyone who thinks different.!!!!!

lol spoken like a true Masshole!

Personally, I'm not knocking Monoprice at all. It is very decent stuff for their price. Heck with prices of Radio Shack and Best Buy stuff these days (oh, the old radio shack days where you could walk in and make your own computer, for cheap..) it's almost the only decent place to find decent prices besides newegg.com.

Know times are tough but if you get a chance and a pair of used Signal cables or, my favs, Kimber PBJ's show up for $25-35 why not grab them and have a listen? If your ears don't like em, you can turn around and sell them for the EXACT same price, or possibly a few buck more.

That's the beauty of used cables. Since they are very hard to damage, and easy to tell if they are damaged, they are sometimes a good investment with name brands that people like.

Meaning you can get in, then get out and still equal $0 spent.

THEN you can **** us out all ya want, cause you got the backup!

lol I love this thread.

K-daugh

theres just one problem..... i just dropped like one fifty on my whole system(cables, wires, tv mount) all from monoprice ......
i have m60's fronts m30's backs cs1 center channel mirage bps150i powered sub......i have a sony 5-disc dvd player dvp-nc80v.....non hdmi....i have a sony avr str-de635.....i have a samsung 40"lcd 1080p ln5530... my dvd is hooked up via 5.1 channel ......
so anyways i just built a brand new bedroom and am running all my components in the closet, all proffesional like, wanted to buy all new cables for my gear everything from a couple hdmi's to some digital coaxial, an optical, some 12/2 in wall speaker wire, bananas, pins ...everything.....and the moral of the story is....i bought everything from monoprice because its all i could afford buying that much quantity (and already being broke from building the room)

K-daugh

was this a good move and yes im giving up my 150-200 dollar set of speaker cables for the front three speakers because the runs i need now are too long my 6' cable wont work

Echosphere

K-daugh wrote: »

was this a good move and yes im giving up my 150-200 dollar set of speaker cables for the front three speakers because the runs i need now are too long my 6' cable wont work

I think that is an AWESOME move and GREAT deal! Dang! Bang for buck, is right! Might even say bang for penny...

You should snap some shots to show off just EXACTLY what you can get for $150 from Monoprice and post the links. There are quite a few young-uns and those wanting a really budget system that would truly benefit from your experience.

I think that is a pretty sweet setup, truly. Hmmm.. Given the components listed, I don't think $500 cable would help that much!

Yeah, sell the cables. I have a pair I paid $200 for that are the opposite of your situation and way too long, 12ft each I think. I've kept them thinking I'll use them, but never have... Hey, wait, you interested in a trade? I'll measure tonight and post some pics.

K-daugh

no i need at least 18 ft runs and 20's to the rears will definately post some pics in the next few weeks after i finish i wish i knew what kind of speaker cables my 6' ones are i could figure it out but id have to take the braided sleeving off and the heat shrink....im pretty sure they are liberty 14/4 but they are terminated with two via blue bananas at one end and two via blue flex pins on the other...i bought the wire from blue jeans....i think(long time ago ,two years) everything else i got from www.avoutlet.com

K-daugh

anyone interested ill post pics of the cables

Echosphere

K-daugh wrote: »

anyone interested ill post pics of the cables

Post em and maybe someone can help identify em for sure.

K-daugh

not sure if i wanna dismantle them but it seems like i have to because everything is heat shrinked with black braided line.....unless i contact av outlet and see if they still have my invoice from two years back... i dunno ill probaby dismantle one and the other two will be untouched....then the buyer can just invest in some heat shrink...

mhmacw

haha! ok let me go read it!

yepimonfire

tonyb wrote: »

No offense,but your not comparing apples and apples. You can't say the cable doesn't matter when you switch gear upwards. How about throwing some nice cables on the ML and see if you hear a difference? Nice cables can be had for well under 500 clams. Look at any recording studio, musicians gear, etc, and tell me how many Rat shack IC"s or Home depot 14 ga. you see. The better your gear,the better your cables need to be to translate that sound to your speakers. Everyone hears differently,thats fine,but don't knock it untill you try it. Snake oil exists no doubt,in just about any product we can buy,one bad cable company doesn't make the rest bad as well.

standard cables ARE in fact in almost all of them.

Echosphere

yepimonfire wrote: »

standard cables ARE in fact in almost all of them.

He's got a good point that I didn't even think about. It's usually the good solid connectors, ground, and shielding that makes them better suited for a recording studio...