Laserdisc vs DVD Audio Quality Test Part 1.

polkfarmboy

I loved reading this thread .

It almost makes me want to buy a LDp

headrott

cheddar wrote: »

It seems that you've found quite significant differences in your testing, though, to DVDs. But blu-ray lossless tracks still compare well. So why not have a blu-ray picture with blu-ray audio instead of a DVD picture with LD audio...but I guess you wouldn't have as much fun trying to rejuvenate your old gear...;)

There are things on LD that have not and may not be released on BD and even DVD. That's the reason I keep the LD player. I have stuff on LD that never came out on DVD.

Greg

LuSh

Next up:

Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom PCM vs DVD DD

Apocalypse Now (Must buy it first) PCM Dolby vs DD DVD

Hopefully FlyFisher can report back with some comparisons.

LuSh

Headrott or others;

Any testing you've done that you can report back on?

headrott

LuSh wrote: »

Headrott or others;

Any testing you've done that you can report back on?

Yep, got 2 more comparisons. The first I did was the Contact DVD Vs. the Contact LD.

I started with the DVD first, and then switched to the LD. The first thing I noticed was the lack of low end on the DVD. Not that it wasn't there, it was just much much less than the LD. I compared the scene when Ellie enters the "pod" and they start the countdown sequence and Ellie goes through the wormhole to Vega, etc. Dynamics were not even a comparison. The LD (yet again) blew away the DVD. Even stereo separation was better on the LD. I loved the SDA effect when Ellie was going through the wormhole with the LD. All I can say is God bless the SDA.:D The audio resolution, clarity and detail sounded better on the LD. You could understand what Ellie was saying while travelling through the wormhole much better on the LD then you could on the DVD. You could also hear little sound effects on the LD that you could not on the DVD. I was not very impressed with the video transfer of the DVD. The LD looked almost as good (90% as good) as the DVD for resolution; color I would say is better on the LD.

Next I did a comparison of the Top Gun DVD to the LD. I think you did a comparison of these two Lush. I did the comparison with the opening scene (first 12 minutes of the movie). Yes, once again the LD blew away the DVD for sound quality. Dynamics of the LD were pretty impressive. The high and low end sounded very good! The F-14's and F-5's (Mig 28's) actually sounded like a jet flying by you watching the LD. The DVD sounded relatively flat with the high and low ends not extended very much. The stereo separation was again better on the LD. The clarity, resolution and detail of the audio was a fair abount better on the LD also. You could hear the cables scraping and chains clinking on the carrier deck on the LD that were much harder to hear on the DVD.

Again, the LD was better by wide margin compared to the DVD in both cases. I think there is a pattern developing here.........LD's have better dynamics and I would say even sound resolution, clarity and detail compared to DVDs.

Greg

polkfarmboy

I should rent one of these and upscale the pic so I can have a listen

I think bluray and dvd's should have separate versions for HT enthusiasts

Bernal

Interesting results...

http://www.experiencefestival.com/laserdisc_-_laserdisc_vs_dvd/articleindex

LuSh

I don't see how this relates to the topic Bernal...

headrott

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I should rent one of these and upscale the pic so I can have a listen

I think bluray and dvd's should have separate versions for HT enthusiasts

Yeah, if you upscale the video it should look pretty good (assuming you use a good player). Give it a try. I think you will like what you hear.

Greg

headrott

Bernal wrote: »

Interesting results...

http://www.experiencefestival.com/laserdisc_-_laserdisc_vs_dvd/articleindex

I don't agree with everything the LD Vs. DVD article states, having compared them first hand. I do agree with some of what it says though.

Lush, did you read the LD Vs. DVD article? I think it loosly relates to the topic, it's just partially incorrect in what it states.

Greg

wayne3burk

i went to my local thrift store the other day..... and bought 30 albums - $1 each.

Two of them were vinyl - the other 28 were LaserDisc movies.

Now all i need is an LD player.

-- wayne --

LuSh

Hey Headrott,

If you get a chance this weekend pop in Jurassic Park (if it's in DTS you can use an optical output and hear it in twice the resolution of DVD). Forget the comparisons I just want to read about what you've heard.

Wayne: LD is very picky from player to player. Quality the format varies from player to player. Check out a CLD-703,704. Best bang for the buck players. CLD-3090 will get the job done but you can do much better. CLD-99 and the stuff Headrott uses will look very close to DVD in terms of picture and sound a lot better.

madmax

mantis wrote: »

Now I wish I still had my player and all my disc's. I want to compare.

Why do you think I bought it! Did you think I only stopped by for the pizza? (which I would have)

Actually, somewhere in the past I wrote up what I noticed about the increased dynamics of the LD format after picking up this player.
madmax

headrott

LuSh wrote: »

Hey Headrott,

If you get a chance this weekend pop in Jurassic Park (if it's in DTS you can use an optical output and hear it in twice the resolution of DVD). Forget the comparisons I just want to read about what you've heard.

I will give it a try and see what it's like. I got this LD when I bought a player a number of years back. I can't remember if it's in DTS or not. I will let you know when I have the chance.

Greg

LuSh

So last week I started looking around for an LD player. I narrowed down my search to a Pioneer CLD-D703/704 or Elite LD dedicated player, or Panasonic LX-900 as after much discussion I had come to the conclusion these players would get me much closer to DVD video quality then the rather soft and 'VHS-like" picture I was getting from a borrowed Pioneer CLD-3090. I ended up finding a Panasonic 900 and a Pioneer CLD-D703 for the same price, the Pioneer guy being closer I opt'd for that and $100 dollars later I walked away with a near mint condition LD player with owner's manual and remote.

I got it home and connected it to my AV receiver. I know my receiver uses a highly regarded ABT2010 scaler so I wanted to test a few things. Right away bang...picture was head and shoulders above the CLD-3090, and I hadn't even turned on the video processing. After activating progressive de-interlacing, smart zoom and video scaling the picture looked pretty good. On Top Gun it was very close to DVD quality. On Empire Strikes back it was good quality but you could still tell it was quite a few steps behind the digitally remastered DVD edition. But to be honest I can't imagine watching the DVD versions again with so much better audio quality on the LD vs the DVD. Even though its not a discrete 5.1 I don't care. The Dolby Digital simply sounds like poorly compressed MP3 to the point I can't go back. I'll take a hit on picture quality vs the better audio. The picture is good enough, besides with the LD I get the original movies and not Luca's gone mad with altered scenes and Gweedo shooting first.

Hope to hear back from Greg, and looking forward to finding some LD's. I've complied a list I would wish to own that have no release dates as of yet on BD including Goldeneye, Apocalypse Now, Star Wars Trilogy, The Game, True Lies among others.

headrott

Sorry Lush, haven't had the opportunity to play the Jurassic Park LD yet. I will though and let you know about it.

Congratulations on the new LD player. I love your comments about the Star Wars films. That's why I haven't bought the DVD's of them yet. I won't until there is a remastered version of the original theatrical releases of each film. I will be satisfied with the LD's until (if ever) the remastered original versions are released on Blu-Ray, if they are not I will just stick with the LD.

Happy watching and listening.

Greg

LuSh

Cool Greg. I'm hoping to get Apocalypse Now sooner rather then later...if a Polkie out there has the movie on LD listen to it in PCM in PLII and let us hear what you think. My memory tells me it was one of the best sounding discs in any format. Many people that I talk to with regards to LD seem to mention it.

dwalkerdon

I know EXACTLY what you guys mean when it comes to dynamics on DVD vs LD!
I think that AC3 DD is very high quality, but Dialnorm sucks the life out of soundtracks. Dolby will not let consumers disable dialnorm, resulting in a mix that sounds watered down & poor which ruins the mixes. But I do believe that Professional Dolby decoders are able to defeat Dialnorm, resulting in the complete Dynamic Range & sheer power of the mixes being revealed. This Frustrates me the most about Dolby Digital. Everything sounds too low, & dialogue is muffled. But I saw Fantastic Four: Rise Of The Silver Surfer in Imax, & although it was not a 70mm blowup, just a regular 35mm print & had a standard DD 320kbps mix, It was the best sound I ever heard, ever! When the Human Torch is flying it sounded like a F14 was flying past me!! It sounded like a PCM track times 300!!!!. Dialnorm does not belong in movies. PERIOD.

Hopefully Dolby will allow the defeat of Dialnorm in there specs, so we can get the full power & High Fidelity of Multichannel soundtracks back!! We at home have higher bitrates than Cinema soundtracks allow & we can't unleash the raw power because of Dolby's stupid useless dialnorm & dynamic range conrol!

dwalkerdon

LuSh, I am about to find some Hi-Fi stereo VHS tapes so I cound start a thread on DVD vs VHS audio quality, YES VHS! LuSh, find a new or barely used copy of Top Gun on Vhs & use a decent Hi-Fi VCR, & you will be surprised to find how much more Dynamic it sounds & it destroys the Special Collectors Edition DVD!

It drives me insane that Dynamics are being compromised, when it should be not!

LuSh

dwalkerdon:

Most of my friends and family thought I went off the deep end exploring older tech in Laser Disc. I'm too preoccupied exploring PC Audio in my two channel system now and really have no interest in VHS as the picture quality is horrid (Laser Disc is bad off the get go but the right player, scaler and movie and it gets close to DVD) and the pure mechanical nature of tape simply degrades over time.

I was able to snag most of the movies I originally set out to get (none in DTS yet however) and all of them really opened my eyes and ears for the most part. Apocalypse Now on Digital Stereo PCM has to be experienced to understand how terrible the DVD 5.1 version is. All digital PCM Laser Disc movies seem to have a 'you're at the movie theater and you're about to hear something special' effect that is missing on many DVD's.

Blu Ray is a different story however. Top Gun on Blu Ray beat the LD fairly easily (mostly directional effects for obvious reasons) and the dynamics were as good or better then the LD (That was a DTS-HD version however so maybe the lack of DialNorm helped?). I will be interested to hear what the BD offerings of Jurassic Park, Apocalypse Now, James Bond's Goldeneye and the Star Wars trilogy. I've also found this website of interest:

http://www.videophile.info/Graphs/JP/JP_01.htm

The person has done extensive measurements comparing DVD vs LD on specific titles including Star Wars Phantom Menace and Jurassic Park. Measured the LD is almost always louder and more dynamic. It was a fun experiment and I learned a lot. I still think that LD was the ultimate enthusiast movie format. It was designed to completely take a user from a theater and allow them to watch the medium of movies like they were meant too. I think the success of DVD was more about size, and convenience features and a long the way people started to buy into the 'performance' benefits. Retailers are certainly not going to tell people all the negatives of DVD while a Home Theater BOOM is under way, business was probably too good for people to care.

dwalkerdon

LuSh, I agree with you 100 percent! Laserdisc will never die!. But most people do not know that most movie theaters do not use Uncompressed sound, in fact they use on average 320kbps for all 6 channels! Only Imax, Digital Projection, & 3D theaters use uncompressed sound. Top Gun on VHS has awesome sound quality, that is almost on par with the LD! VHS HI-FI stereo is analog, so no compression was applied to it. It was a lossless technology, that is near CD Quality. The reason I think that DVD's volume's are so low is because the mixers were mixing a soundtrack intended for Large Auditoriums, not nearfield home stereos. Combine that with dialnorm & Dynamic Range Control, & we get mixes that are compromised from the master source. I think that you would need to invest in true professional cinema decoders & acoustics to hear the true dynamics of the lossy mix. When i saw Fantastic Four Rise Of The Silver Surfer in Imax, which was not a blowup print, I could not believe how good 320kbps DD 5.1 sounded, on a system of that scale. I guess that pro decoders used in High-End Cinemas would give you Laserdisc dynamics. I don't think that audio was watered down on DVD on purpose, I think maybe the reason why they lowered the volume of most recordings was to protect equipment & peoples hearing. But LuSh, even VHS Surround soundtracks are more dynamic & louder than DD. I guess because it was 2 channel Pro Logic designed for home systems. Dialnorm was implemented incorrectly on DVD & has reduced the sonic impact that was present on both LD & VHS.

dwalkerdon

There has to be a volume cap on all AC3 encodings. It could be the best mix ever, but ruined by a maximum volume setting in the metadata that us consumers cannot reverse. LD's had killer bass!

LuSh

I recently acquired some more Laserdisc's including Casino DTS, The Hunt for Red October and Mission Impossible. I don't have a DTS decoder at the moment so I settled in for some good ole' two channel PCM from Red October and Mission Impossible. Man it was sweet. It was rich, layered and extended well beyond the speakers. The dynamic's in bass output is really something...something I simply can't recreate with the DVD's of these movies.

I'll be on the prowl for some more Laser's in the future. I've also convinced myself to purchase a better player then the current CLD-703 I own in favor of an Elite 99 or perhaps 95 as I keep running across people who simply want to throw away their old laserdiscs's.

It will be interesting to compare Casino in fullbite DTS vs DVD Dolby Digital...I'll have an opportunity to compare next weekend. If nothing else this whole journey has been a lot of fun. Imagine that...'fun' in this crazy hobby.

headrott

I'm telling you, get the LD-S2 because you won't regret it. It has the best picture and audio quality out of any LD player below $3,000. You'll enjoy it.

Greg

dwalkerdon

I was reading up on studies of Lossy Compression & I think that Dolby Digital is capable of just as much Dynamic Range, & Clarity as Uncompressed PCM & DTS HD-Master audio tracks.

Here is the link to one listening test that I read about: http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM?page=2%2C0

It seems to me like all DD tracks are somewhat encrypted or locked, meaning we will not get the full potential out of the audio tracks unless we don't adhere to Dolby's exact standards. What other codec can sound like crap one minute, & then sound like a uncompressed PCM mix the next. Dolby knows the secrets to achieving maximum audio fidelity using very low bitrates, but won't tell consumers exactly how to achieve that level of performance because it will affect hardware sales. Just imagine, getting DTS-HD Master Audio & Dolby TrueHD level performance out of a 320, 384, & 448kbps DD or Dolby Digital Plus soundtrack. Why would DTS HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD be needed if you can get the same performance from DD or DD Plus.

Dolby Digital is not a typical Audio Compression technology. It is completely different from other codecs.


I did a comparison of Event Horizon, Star Trek: First Contact, & Starship Troopers Laserdisc PCM track vs the DVD DD 2.0 track & I found that the mixes were exactly the same, but they had the usual Low Volume & Harshness that DD suffers from. If we could unlock the true potential of these tracks, than we would not be complaining about DD being a low bitrate codec.

steveinaz

Interesting topic, I had a Pioneer LD player in the late 80's.

laserdisc12

DVD are Bluray audio is a complete joke comparing to dynamic and robust audio track of laserdisc. I spent so much money buying DVDs and Blurays movies being tricked into lossless audio craps from bluray format and ended up selling on ebay and only keep ones that I think the sound are decent and been collecting laserdiscs. Do not be FOOLED by lossless DTS Master audio or Tru-HD craps from Bluray format.

kuntasensei

Right... because exact reproductions of the masters are so much worse than laserdisc. :rolleyes: Way to revive a dead thread, sir. And welcome to Club Polk!

Serendipity

Just for fun I hooked up the JVC HR-S7000U S-VHS deck to my system. It's not a LaserDisc player, but I had no idea VHS tape could sound this good. Gotta give credit where it's due though, the HR-S7000U was the most expensive (and probably best sounding!) VCR back in 1987.

Gatecrasher

I remember in the late 80s - early 90s when I had a very good SVHS player and LD. The SVHS player was an RCA Dimensia Hi-Fi unit (the best VHS player I've ever owned and cost over $1,000 at the time) and the LD player was a mid-level Pioneer unit. The picture of the VHS seemed better to me than the same LD release at the time while the analog sound was a tad better with the LD. Nothing earth-shattering though. That was comparing a flagship VCR vs a lower-end LD though.

Eventually the Dimensia crapped-out in the 90s and I never had it repaired but still have the LD player and all my discs. The LD player broke about 10 years ago though. I never really had the urge to get the LD repaired or buy another as I moved on to DVDs.

I was thinking of using the LaserDiscs for skeet shooting or something but could never bring myself to trash them. I still have a bunch of them stored away. Haven't played one in ten years.

Do they even make LaserDiscs anymore?