The Install 2010

arun1963

Yes. The better it gets, the more the flaws stand out.

arun1963

Mac, serious question

In your Honda, the way the tweets were placed they were obviously reflecting off the windshield. Was there a particular spot on the windshield where they were aimed?

Based on your response I'm going to try and play around with my temp pods to see if I can get them going off the windshield. That would also mean that there'sno direct sound from the tweet, its all reflected sound.......dunno if I'm seeing this right...

MacLeod

The SR tweeters wouldn't work in that spot because they're so directional. I had to use a set of Morel dome tweeters to get that spot to work.

arun1963

Soooooo.....all this while that you were talking about the front corners of the dash being a good location, you were talking about for the mt-23 type of tweets? *facepalm*

You had me totally confused how directional tweets could sound good there. I thought maybe reflections off the glass...and all the years you competed with the sr tweets, you were running them in the sails?

MacLeod

Actually it was the MDT-12 home tweeters off of Madisound for$30 each. A friend of mine let me borrow his $600 each Genesis tweeters for finals last year. Oooohh baby!

If you can fab up a way to get the SR tweeters on axis in that location, it is a great spot.

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

Actually it was the MDT-12 home tweeters off of Madisound for$30 each. A friend of mine let me borrow his $600 each Genesis tweeters for finals last year. Oooohh baby!

sooo.. you're saying expensive equipment sounds better? :eek: . IIRC Genesis outsourced the drivers and just made the passives. The tweets were from scan and the mids were from Aliante I think, not sure though. I'm sure they were great though, scans are known for detailed highs. Would love to hear a well tuned set.

MacLeod wrote: »

If you can fab up a way to get the SR tweeters on axis in that location, it is a great spot.

hmmm....I need to extend the tweet wires by about 8-9". I can then put them in the corners and because of the sharp slope there, they would be firing above the dash. Cause they're further away, I can bring them more on axis while aiming them at more or less the same spot between the seats.

Can I splice 10" extensions on the current tweet cables, or do I need to run a new length back from the amps?

MacLeod

Purists will tell you to run new wires. I'd tell you to add the extensions. For subs or the main power wire you don't want to add splices, for little tweeters and especially for experimenting with mounting positions, it ain't gonna but anything. If you like the results you can run new wires whenever you want a project to do one afternoon.

arun1963

That's what the thinking was. If I like it, I'd run full length down the line. Going to the installer would be like a 3-4 trip on a Sunday. Plus its like 120 outside during the day. Kinda looking forward to this.

How's the install coming?

arun1963

A bit OT, but if you're in the install stage, you're also in the serious tuning stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mclachlan-freedom.jpg

CP wont let me post a pic I've posted before.

You may not like the material, but this cd really gives the setup a work out. 20-15khz, pretty much the whole range. sometimes when you're tuning, having something new in the mix can help.

Great imaging, very well recorded. Some material is live and some is recorded in hotel rooms etc. You'd really get this one live'er on your setup. If you can down load lossless versions to try:

1. Elsewhere : Just great impact. Tells me exactly whats right and whats not in the mid bass. Sub is great tho..:o

2. Hold On : This is a live track. This will sound live'er. With this song, you need to have the 2-6khz range set well. The ability to set each driver separately in this range, is the primary reason for wanting an eq. A lot of this song moves through this range. Its her solo on a piano. This one is for pure balance and I don't have it fully.

Shes done these songs on other albums as well but try and get it off this album. Yeah this was tonights listening .

After writing the post, it strikes me that maybe this ought to be in codys thread......

MacLeod

I generally stick with the MECA disc (Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc). Its about unbeatable for mids and high detail. Its not very dynamic or fun to listen to but its intricate details are unmatched.

Then Ill tune the midbass and subbass off of some of my heavy metal CD's for my own personal listening.

PoweredByDodge

... Clint Black - DeElectrified CD

... Toby Keith - Dreamwalkin'

... Lady Gaga - Bad Romance


-- that's my most recent 'test-n-tune'

arun1963

Moved the tweets about 5" further in. To the edge of the wind shield. Aimed at more or less the same spot, between the two seats, just a bit higher. This brings both tweets a bit more on axis.

Moving the tweets 5", increased the stage depth by about 12-14". Sound is still contained within the physical boundaries of the drivers. But there is good presentation of both width and depth. Greater impact, better tonality, lower sibilance levels.

The near side tweet is smoother. What it also allows, is to push the xover point higher. 6.15khz. Cut the mid at 24db and let the tweets float down on a 12db slope. This seems to work for me since my eq is combined for all drivers. So 3khz will affect both the tweet and mid the same. The mids are beaming at 3khz the tweets aren't. So if you set this for the mids it always made the near tweet brighter and frequencies around 3khz would all pull towards the near tweet. Having a xover point (4-5khz) around this mess, just adds to the chaos.

With a higher xover the beaming point and the xover point are separated a bit. Cleans up the mids-highs. You can set 1-2khz more for the mids and have better control over sibilance.

The sr mids play to 6khz with fair authority. The tweets are great when you don't hear them too far under 3khz. Independent driver control would still be better, but its much, much better than before.

It's still early days and things may change vis a vis some settings, but overall a big bump up.

Good call Mac. :cool:

MacLeod

6 is a way high cutoff point. The SR mids will ay up to 6 but they drop off very sharply after that point so they're my going to mix well with the tweets.

arun1963

5 is where I started off. Amazing, almost over bearing impact. But I need to work on some stuff here. 6khz was an impulse, while ding the mids only. It helps to separate the beaming pt and the xover pt, but on a 12 db slope the tweets don't come down far enough. So yes there is a bit of mixing issue. If you put the tweets on a 6db slope, they're playing 2 & 3khz with presence and you're back to square 1.

But even 6, with its flaws is better than what I had. I know I'll eventually go back to 5kh and try to fix it. But, wow on the depth. Am thrilled to bits.

But its not all roses. I've lost some on the detailing and proportion of the mouth. Some tweaking coming up.

PoweredByDodge

arun1963 wrote: »

Moved the tweets about 5" further in. To the edge of the wind shield. Aimed at more or less the same spot, between the two seats, just a bit higher. This brings both tweets a bit more on axis.

Moving the tweets 5", increased the stage depth by about 12-14". Sound is still contained within the physical boundaries of the drivers. But there is good presentation of both width and depth. Greater impact, better tonality, lower sibilance levels.

... told ya so. :cool:

I agree with Mac regarding the 6k xover point. I haven't heard your car, but in most cases what you're describing (where you have to cut them over higher in order to 'tame' them so they're not over bearing and trying to kill you) is actually best solved by dropping the overall response by 3 db or 6 db (more than its already dropped). Of course, if you have them bi-amped (mid on a separate amp or channel than the tweet), then you can just decrease the gain on the tweet... otherwise a L-pad circuit (two wirewound ceramic resistors) does the job quite well.

MacLeod

I got the tweeters set up in the A pillars. Theyre firing more at the opposite side B pillar which is a little further out that I wanted but theyre ok. Tonallity they seem to work pretty well. Neither is overpowering the other. The width actually decreased some. Before they were aimed right at me and I didnt think this would make that big a difference but it did. On the plus side, the stage doesnt seem to rainbow any which is was doing with the temporary spot.

I took a couple pics and Ill post them up tomorrow. Right now its bed time. 5:30 AM is right around the corner.

arun1963

PoweredByDodge wrote: »

... told ya so. :cool:

I agree with Mac regarding the 6k xover point. .

I do too. I know 6 is pushing it. With the new placement, I need to work on 5khz a bit and that will take some time. Which I don't have right now. So 6 is a temp solution of sorts.

PoweredByDodge wrote: »

I haven't heard your car, but in most cases what you're describing (where you have to cut them over higher in order to 'tame' them so they're not over bearing and trying to kill you) is actually best solved by dropping the overall response by 3 db or 6 db (more than its already dropped). Of course, if you have them bi-amped (mid on a separate amp or channel than the tweet), then you can just decrease the gain on the tweet... otherwise a L-pad circuit (two wirewound ceramic resistors) does the job quite well.

I'm running active off a p-880 hu, sr6500, pa500.4, mm-2124 + pa 200.1. The tweets are already attenuated 8db for both sides. It's not that the tweets are bright. With the previous placement I had them crossed at 5khz. The real problem was around 3khz which is the beaming point for the near mid. To fix this I had to raise 3khz for the near mid like 4dbs more than for the far side. This makes 2, 2.5, and up thru 8khz brighter on my side and hence you need to play with the eq some more. With the new location, this problem gets highlighted more. If I could eq each driver separately I could better handle this. But I can't, at least not without a processor.

MacLeod wrote: »

I got the tweeters set up in the A pillars. Theyre firing more at the opposite side B pillar which is a little further out that I wanted but they're ok. The width actually decreased some.

Could this be the reason for feeling that the stage has narrowed a bit? If the tweets are aimed at the B pillars, the intersection point could still be between the seats BUT further back from the position of your head. This could mean that while the near tweet is a bit more on axis, the far one has now become a little more off axis, i.e. is firing behind your right ear.

MacLeod wrote: »

I took a couple pics and Ill post them up tomorrow. Right now its bed time. 5:30 AM is right around the corner.

Another insomniac? :eek:

MacLeod

Where the tweeters were before, they were pretty much firing right at me with no interference with some loading off the window. With this new spot they're aimed into the car more and the A pillar is right there beside them so its loading off of that and imaging a little further inside.

I think I can fix this with a higher crossover point (3.2 right now) and if not I can buy new PVC caps and aim them in more so its not hopeless yet.

I threw a quick tune on it last night and I was very surprised how little EQ I needed. Before I level matched, there were very few bands tweaked. Maybe there is something to having the mid and tweet close together afterall.

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

and if not I can buy new PVC caps and aim them in more so its not hopeless yet.

That PVC cap thingy, is like one of the std mounting cap/cups that come in the sr box. It's like a pipe with a big bowl and short small stem. You cut a hole in the pillar and stick the stem end in.

You'd probably get it from CS for shipping cost. Of course, the polk one may not give you the angle you're looking for. I guess the mounting angle dictates where you stick the stem.

MacLeod

You're just hell bent on me putting tweeters in the A pillars ain't ya? They're going in the sail panels....at least for now so get over it!

The PVC pipe thing is great cause you use a 3/8" tube to mount it and run the wire thru so you only have to cut a 3/8" hope in your trim panel. I'm sick of having to hide 3" holes every 3 years when I buy a new car.

arun1963

sigh....*facepalm*

In my last post I deleted the bit where I asked you how moving the tweets to the A's made the speakers sound like point source. Cause I figured you meant, when the tweets were in the sails. I just didn't carry the logic forward.

Nope, not fixated on the pillars. In fact not even on the dash corners, lets see. Nah, my helping is limited to the odd, somewhat ham handed comments on the big picture :cool:

catch22atplay

Well i'm glad i came here. Learning quite a bit reading new and really old posts as well. Luck with setting up that car Aaron. Pics please.

arun1963

I think this is going to be your longest install thread. Partly cause you're crawling with your install and mostly cause i'm gibbering a lot. :cool:

The tweets in the corners didn't work out. I'm back to where I started. While deeper and in the corners, gave better depth, the cost was too high. Image clarity, tonality and height all took a hit.

That it didn't work out, however has less to do with the location per se and more to do with the shape of the dash. The last 10% of the dash slopes down about 2" to the base of the windshield.

Hence the tweets were on a slope. While I could get them on-axis in the horizontal plane, they were way off axis on the vertical plane. they were firing at a point around the top of my head. About 7-8" above ear level. That is enough to throw these tweets off axis. That's how narrow the dispersion is.

The thing is, every time a part of your sound (detailing / width / depth / height / tonality..) gets a bump, your mind gets wowed with it. It's almost like a sensory overload. It's important to keep testing for the other basics to see how they are impacted by this change. If they are all neutral and only one is a bit worse, chances are you may not stick with the change.

Now, if the dash were flat to the corners, the tweets would stay on axis vertically as well and everything would be neutral or better. Hence high chances of it working out.

MacLeod

Yeah those thing dont work well in that spot. If you get some domes, try those. They work much better.

Got some pictures.

This is the tweeter pod. Simply drilled a hole in the bottom corner of it and threaded the tube into it and screwed a hex nut on it to hold it in place.



This is what they look like mounted. Theyre too far off axis so I went and bought some more and am going to mount them facing me more. Ace Hardware has the best ones. The 1.25" fit them pretty good. You can pop them in and theyll hold by those little notches on them that fit in the grooves of the stock cup. The 1" PVC cap is an even better fit. The tweet fits down in there perfect and is held in place by the tension from the speaker wires.



Here is my trusty 9861.



This is the stock opening for the front doors. Its raised plastic which sucks. I put a layer of Dynamat on both front and back sides so it should be pretty sturdy. Hopefully I wont have any issues. The 5.25's probably cant make enough sub bass to cause any real issues.....I hope.

arun1963

Like you said the tweets need to be way more on axis. Maybe angle them a touch upwards. In the same vertical plane, can you mount them like 4" higher?

TakeTheTime

MacLeod wrote: »

This is the stock opening for the front doors. Its raised plastic which sucks. I put a layer of Dynamat on both front and back sides so it should be pretty sturdy. Hopefully I wont have any issues. The 5.25's probably cant make enough sub bass to cause any real issues.....I hope.

Nice pics!

Well, the 5.25" has excellent midbass down to 40hz,
and I do have some issues with my door at loud volumes.

catch22atplay

Damn you're right. The 5.25's are way low in that door. I'd be very curious about the results you can achieve with that door handicapping you.

I like where you're putting the the tweets now. No early reflections off that round dashboard and also widens the soundstage on the left side. But that also reduced your depth even more. Can't win them all in that ride. I think i prefer the width more than the depth.

Love that pvc cap idea you found at diy and utilized. Maybe buy 10 of them. Looks like a major pita marking the exact spot to drill that hole in em. And you know you want to play with a few different positions. Maybe buy some pvp pipe as well. Stick the cap on one end. Stick the other end on the opposite headrest or thru the opposite window with it rolled up 2/3 of the way or whatever line of sight position you're looking for. That should help in holding the line of sight position you want for marking the cap.

Paint that pvp cap neon blue when you're done with it. Ya, i'm kidding.

MacLeod

Oh yeah, things are starting to come together. Re-aimed my tweeters again. Now theyre pointing at the opposite C pillar. Basically firing right between the seats. When I first fired it up, the left one nearly took my head off but after some test tones and EQ'ing, I think Ive got it working. Stage is just outside the car now. The violins on Spanish Harlem are right at the windows edge and the guitar in Breaking the Silence (Janis Ian) is just outside the window. Yay!

Also tried something I always used to trash - using the processors crossover for the sub AND the crossover on the amp. Since Im running the 5.25's, Im gonna need some more oomph out of the sub bu I cant let it pull to the rear. 3 ms delay did the trick on pulling it up front pretty nice but I couldnt get that boost in the 40-63 Hz range without 80+ bleeding in and pulling to the rear. Even with a 30 db slope AND 80-250 Hz at -9 on the EQ it still bled thru. So I set the amps crossover to what I guess is 125 Hz and that let me get away with more sub. Its still a tad much for stand up bass tracks but its just right for kick drums. Im gonna have to find a happy medium here shortly.

God I forgot how much fun this is! I cant wait to start hitting some shows! All Ive got left to do is wire up a turn off delay for the 500.4 (wicked turn off pop) and hunt down a bad rattle in the passenger door but other than that, Im ready to hit the lanes!

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

Oh yeah, things are starting to come together. Re-aimed my tweeters again. Now theyre pointing at the opposite C pillar. Basically firing right between the seats. When I first fired it up, the left one nearly took my head off but after some test tones and EQ'ing, I think Ive got it working. Stage is just outside the car now. The violins on Spanish Harlem are right at the windows edge and the guitar in Breaking the Silence (Janis Ian) is just outside the window. Yay!

WAHHHHH thats how I have them aimed too, but I still don't have the stage beyond the windows :mad: . The processor is the key.

MacLeod wrote: »

Also tried something I always used to trash - cascading xovers and slopes........I couldnt get that boost in the 40-63 Hz range without 80+ bleeding in and pulling to the rear. Even with a 30 db slope AND 80-250 Hz at -9 on the EQ it still bled thru. So I set the amps crossover to what I guess is 125 Hz and that let me get away with more sub. Its still a tad much for stand up bass tracks but its just right for kick drums. Im gonna have to find a happy medium here shortly.

Try turning the xover dial on the amp down to like 70-80hz. I figure that's where you need the extra flitering, for what you're trying to do. I guess that will also help with the stand up bass issue you mentioned.

MacLeod wrote: »

God I forgot how much fun this is! I cant wait to start hitting some shows! All Ive got left to do is wire up a turn off delay for the 500.4 (wicked turn off pop) and hunt down a bad rattle in the passenger door but other than that, Im ready to hit the lanes!

I guess it's about the right time to wish you all the best for this season. Good Luck. Whats the first competition you're attending?

MacLeod

First show of the season is Sunday up near Nashville. Got things sounding pretty good. Tonality Im kinda happy with but, as I predicted, Im having a fit trying to get the imaging to focus up.

Gonna spend some time on it tonight and tomorrow night and see if I cant get things to tighten up.

Tossed in my new MM104 yesterday in a .75 sealed box. These new MM subs just RULE! I had my old Momo 10 in there temporarily and this MM is in a whole other league.

I also fixed the rattle in the passenger door and it took forever. Finally just slapped in some 1" thick foam on the side of the rattle and it was gone. Now Ive got one on the drivers side door. Ugh.

So I have to fix that and I still have to wire up the delay for the 500.4 before I head off.