Wyred 4 Sound DAC's...

bhobba

Freak When C wrote: »

Would those methods I described above be better than directly connecting a DAC to a PC via USB or SPDIF?

Depends on the DAC. Some DAC's take great care to ensure its sound from the USB is of the highest quality. Indeed the makers of the Tranquility DAC, which only has an USB input, cliam, via double blind tests, that USB is superior to any other method. In fact they go further (again supposedly confirmed by double blind tests) and claim even allowing switching between different types of input degrades sound and only have a USB input. However other manufactures don't take the same level of care to ensure their USB input is that good (they often have high jitter) and converting to spdif first would possibly be superior. However in the case of the wyred for sound DAC 2 (not the dac 1) the USB port is operated asynchronously meaning it is in no way affected by timing errors at the computer. The jitter is determined solely by the clock in the DAC which in the case of the DAC 2 is quite good. However due to the excellent jitter rejection of the Sabre DAC a small amount of jitter is of no consequence so the clock does not need to be extremely low jitter.

While the WFS DAC 1 evidently does not operate asynchronously it still has the excellent jitter rejection of the Sabre and providing reasonable care was taken (and I am sure it would have been) to ensure any jitter is within what the Sabre can get rid of then you should find the USB to sound identical to the the other inputs.

Bottom line here is for the WFS DAC 2 USB is the best method of connection but the SPDF connection will almost certainly be audibly just as good - that's due to the excellent jitter rejection of the Sabre. For the DAC 1 again all connections should sound the same but the USB input is not inherently the best.

I have just ordered the DAC 2 and plan to feed it from an I5 Macbook pro via a long USB cable because technically that will be better than any other method - although it is doubtful it will audibly be of any consequence.

Thanks
Bil

Freak When C

For your very first post here a CP, bhobba, that was very informative and helpful. I'm surprised nobody has said it yet, so I will, welcome to Club Polk! Please come back to give us your impressions and describe how you like your W4S DAC 2.

FTGV wrote: »

If you have a DAC with higher than redbook resolution (and plan to download some of the hi rez 24/96 wav or flac files from the likes of HD Tracks and iTracks) then your best bet is an Asyncronous USB interface.

If you don't have those kinds of hi-rez wav or flac files, then would the W4S DAC 2 be overkill? I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of my flac files are of the 6bit/48k resolution variety. So would there be any point getting the W4S DAC 2 or would the W4S DAC 1 be the more appropriate choice?

doctorcilantro

I have had two DACs which I think employ adaptive mode; the Eastern Electric DAC and the Maverick D1. The d1 can do up to 96kHz via USB though. Both allowed noise from the PC PSU to get into the signal chain. I can't if USB is supposed to be galvanically isolated or not by default, or only some implementations. I usually use AES but you can get noise there too due to grounding issues and floating pin1 can help (or the PC which is not really ideal). Thus, I feel I have more control with AES if I get a noise issue.

bhobba

Freak When C wrote: »

For your very first post here a CP, bhobba, that was very informative and helpful. I'm surprised nobody has said it yet, so I will, welcome to Club Polk! Please come back to give us your impressions and describe how you like your W4S DAC 2.

Thank you very much and I certainly will.

Freak When C wrote: »

If you don't have those kinds of hi-rez wav or flac files, then would the W4S DAC 2 be overkill? I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of my flac files are of the 6bit/48k resolution variety. So would there be any point getting the W4S DAC 2 or would the W4S DAC 1 be the more appropriate choice?

IMHO no because players are now starting to appear that implement excellent up-sampling algorithms - better than the already excellent up-sampling in the SABRE eg:
http://www.channld.com/pure-music1.html

That said we are speaking on very fine point differences. If you are heavily into this sort of stuff like me then the DAC 2 is technically superior and I would not even consider the DAC 1. The DAC 2 also has a digital volume control allowing for direct connection to an amp - which can save you the cost of a pre amp when putting together a new system from scratch like I am doing.

If you aren't heavily into this sort of thing and you already have pre amp I would get the DAC 1 knowing audible differences will be marginal at best - perhaps even identical to your ears.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba

doctorcilantro wrote: »

I have had two DACs which I think employ adaptive mode; the Eastern Electric DAC and the Maverick D1. The d1 can do up to 96kHz via USB though. Both allowed noise from the PC PSU to get into the signal chain. I can't if USB is supposed to be galvanically isolated or not by default, or only some implementations. I usually use AES but you can get noise there too due to grounding issues and floating pin1 can help (or the PC which is not really ideal). Thus, I feel I have more control with AES if I get a noise issue.

No need to worry with the DAC 2 - it operates asynchronously so nothing going on in the computer can get through. The DAC 1 does not but because of the SABRE chip it is doubtful it will be audible - at least nay difference will be small at best. The Easter Electric also uses the SABRE 32 bit so I would be surprised if you hear can hear much if any audible differences between the USB and other inputs with that DAC. Not impossible and I would not be totally floored if it existed - but I would still be surprised. I have read reviews of the Eastern electric and the differences they heard was small with the USB being preferred over toslink:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77901.0

I must admit I am a bit surprised they hear any difference really.

Thanks
Bill

Face

Still waiting on my DAC-2, but I'm really loving this DAC-1 for the time being.

punk-roc

cool, be sure to keep us posted, especially once your dac2 arrives.. I love my Nova right now, but i'm curious what your impressions of the dac2 versus the Nova will be..

Jason

Face

DAC-2 should be here this week.

Face

It's here.

punk-roc

woot!

Erik Tracy

Face wrote: »

It's here.

Pics and a full report - or it never happened....

Face

Once the unit is broken in I'll give a full report. But as it stands now, I'm really impressed.

mrkoven

I'm dying to hear a report of the DAC-2, especially compared with the Nova!

bhobba

Hi All

My DAC 2 arrived. I had it delivered to a trusted acquaintance who does modding to check it out for possible upgrade potential and he was also interested in hearing it. He reports it is very very good. He thinks it can be upgraded by replacing the clock with a terra firma, but the analogue looks so good he is not sure he can do too much with that. It may be possible to make the analogue better but it is not easily accessible for that purpose and because it is already very good he doesn't think it really is worthwhile bothering.

I will be getting delivered to me Friday and will be doing an extensive listening session Saturday with some friends against some other DAC's including the Audio GD and DAC Magic. I can report further then.

I have read elsewhere it sh**'s on the Nova - as it should since it uses a higher quality DAC and better output stage.

It is probably is pretty useless to most who frequent this forum but I will mention it anyway. It will be down at Lehehan Audio on the Gold Coast in Australia for at least two weeks so people can pop along and check it out.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba

Hi All

Just returned from our outing hearing this DAC.

OK. First off when we arrived Mike (he is the owner of Lenehan Audio) said he had been listening to it and thought it was very good. In fact he thought it was as good as his much more expensive and highly tweaked pcm 1704 DAC - with maybe, just maybe his DAC being a bit better - but not by much. However they were very different. First when we went into the listening area he had the WFS DAC running and a smile immediately came over my face because it was exactly the sound I like - detailed, analytical and dark. Although its not something I particularly look for it had great bass as well - but that may have been part of the great detail. If you have heard delta sigma DAC's before then this was delta sigma in overdrive. Everyone thought it was the best delta sigma they had heard.

We were going to try the DAC Magic but Mike said - don't bother - this is way out of its league so we didn't give it a listen to. Mike was shocked a DAC this affordable could be this good. We then hooked up Mike's DAC. It was entirely different - much more relaxed and well musical - but the detail had gone and the bass was not as good. In quality terms I thought they were both equal - just different. Evidently because Mike was so shocked at how good it was he had been extensively comparing it to his DAC and thought in the end his DAC may have had a slight edge - but it was scary close - not in terms of the type of sound - they were very different - but in terms of how good they were. I had no where near the experience Mike has with his DAC, and of course I have a bias because I purchased the WFS DAC, but do me it was more than scary close - they were equal - again in terms of quality - not in type of sound.

We tried the WFS sound direct into the amp and the digital volume control, and as you would expect, it was utterly transparent - no pre amp required here. We tried both optical and USB - I thought the USB may have been slightly better, but others were not so sure, so it may have been my imagination. One issue though - the USB drivers crashed a few times which is not good. That was on a mac so hopefully the windows version is more stable. Of course that is not good, and is something WFS needs to look into pretty quick.

Next up was the Audio GD which is also a 1704 implementation. It was actually scary close to Mike's DAC - Mike's DAC was better, but really there was not much in it. And at $1300 it is very good value. It had the same relaxed musical presentation as Mike's DAC. However it did not include a digital volume control, but if you are feeding it from a computer then that is not an issue since you can use your computers volume control. But it is not as flexible as the WFS in that sense.

Now to the bottom line. Since all the DAC's were close in quality terms it comes down to a personal preference thing. If you like detail and good bass go for the WFS. If you like a more relaxed musical presentation go for Mike's or the Audio GD DAC (you will need to contact Mike about his DAC- but its a good deal more expensive than either the WFS or the Audio GD). I personally like the extra detail so for me it's the WFS DAC. But the two other guys (Hugh and Terry) liked the 1704 DACs. The WFS is about $1900 compared to the $1300.00 for the Audio GD. To my ears the WFS was sightly better in quality terms - but there was hardly anything in it. Was it $600.00 difference - in the way I judge these things probably not - maybe $100.00 or $200.00. Also this is the middle quality Audio GD - the higher quality DAC would probably more than make up this difference and may even pip the WFS - but we can't be sure because we didn't try it. It so then it would be up to Mike's DAC and have the same relaxed musical presentation.

I will say this is not the result I expected - but was what we found. I am very happy with my DAC since it has the type of sound I like - but it may not be your cup of tea. My suggestion is to try and listen to both types of DAC's - a WFS and a 1704. If you like the WFS sound get that. If you like the 1704 get an Audio GD. Mike is so impressed with the WFS sound he wants it there for longer so he can get to the bottom of its sound - he is still shocked a DAC this cheap can be this good.

I had heard this DAC was scary close to the best out there with the difference in price possibly not worth it - this is what I found. What I did not expect was that is true in quality terms - not in the type of sound you get.

Because of this I am reminded of the Tranquility DAC which is the other DAC people are raving about. It is supposed to combine the best of both DACs - to have the relaxed musicality of the 1704's but the detail of delta sigma DAC's. I was not attracted to this DAC because you need a pre amp - a good one which costs more than the WFS DAC itself. However after hearing both DAC's I can see how a combination of the two would be killer. Pre amp or no pre amp I may just have to bite the bullet and check this DAC out. It may be a fizzer but if true it would really be something. I will give very careful consideration to getting one of these imported.

Thanks
Bill

Face

FYI, the DAC-2 is only $1,500, not $1,900.

TouchOfEvil

Now i want a DAC....but can't buy one =[

Polkitup2

Face wrote: »

FYI, the DAC-2 is only $1,500, not $1,900.

I'm thinking he's talking Australian dollars

bhobba

Face wrote: »

FYI, the DAC-2 is only $1,500, not $1,900.

I am in Aus. Sorry for the confusion buit these are Aus prices.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba

Polkitup2 wrote: »

I'm thinking he's talking Australian dollars

Yes.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba

Hi All

A trusted acquaintance popped around to Mike's last night to hear the WFS. He thought it sounded awful and Mike thought it was a lot worse than when he heard it previously. Something funny going on here - it probably needs some serious break-in time - but I would hold off getting one until this is sorted out. I will be leaving it at Mikes to get that break-in and report on how it sounds as the break in proceeds.

Thanks
Bill

doctorcilantro

bhobba wrote: »

Hi All

A trusted acquaintance popped around to Mike's last night to hear the WFS. He thought it sounded awful and Mike thought it was a lot worse than when he heard it previously. Something funny going on here - it probably needs some serious break-in time - but I would hold off getting one until this is sorted out. I will be leaving it at Mikes to get that break-in and report on how it sounds as the break in proceeds.

Thanks
Bill

Weird. The DAC abides....

Face

:rolleyes: ...

doctorcilantro

Face wrote: »

:rolleyes: ...

%$#% it FACE, let's go bowling.:cool: (*in Walter's voice)

bhobba

Hi All

I have been assured by the guy who heard it this is not unusual behavioral during break-in. He does a lot of reviews and has seen it before. Also there could be an element of personal preference here. It is not as musical as other DAC's. I will going around next Saturday with a friend after it has been breaking in since about last Wednesday. We will be comparing it to a Havana. Simply don't make any decisions to buy etc for a little while - that's all. I purchased the dac and I am not worried in the least. I will report next Saturday/Sunday.

Thanks
Bill

Face

I love the "don't make any decisions to buy", lol.

As for the Havana, I compared the two. The Havana is probably one of the most over rated pieces in hi-fi right now with it's small soundstage, bloated bass, and lack of transparency.

Polkitup2

Face wrote: »

Once the unit is broken in I'll give a full report. But as it stands now, I'm really impressed.

Any update? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the Wyred DAC.:)

bhobba

Face wrote: »

As for the Havana, I compared the two. The Havana is probably one of the most over rated pieces in hi-fi right now with it's small soundstage, bloated bass, and lack of transparency.

I am not expecting much of the Havana - after all its nearly half the price of the WFS. My friend has one so wants to check it out. The real competition will come from Mike's highly tweaked 1704. Evidently it was originally a Monarchy but he has modified it so much its not really the same machine.

Thanks
Bill

Des Moines

Polkitup2 wrote: »

Any update? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the Wyred DAC.:)

+ 1 on your take, Face

Face

I'll post some sort of review soon. In the meantime I'll say that I'm thrilled with both the DAC-1 and DAC-2, they both exceeded my expectations. They both do everything right if you know what I mean.