Wyred 4 Sound DAC's...

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  • bhobba
    bhobba Posts: 14
    edited July 2010
    Hi All

    Just returned from Mike's where we compared the Havana, the WFS and Mike's pcm1704. The WFS had well over 200 hours on it - probably well over 240 since it had been continuously breaking-in for over 10 days.

    First the Havana was soundly spanked - but it was half the price of my WFS and the 1704 was more expensive again. There was not a single area the Havana was not beaten - its bass was noticeably woolly and one note. It did not have good control of sibilance and its sound-stage lacked height, width and depth.

    It was between the 1704 and the WFS. Sad to say there was only one area the 1704 did not equal or beat it - detail retrieval. Of that the WFS was king. Before I gave the bass to the WFS, but now it's broken in I say they are now about the same. I think the bass tightness of the unbroken in ML1's made it seem better before since they cancelled each other out. We did the testing this time on a pair of well broken in ML3's. However for sound-stage, width, height and depth, the 1704 was clearly better. Like last time the fluidity, liquidity and musicality went to the 1704. The WFS had a slight sibilance control issue totally lacking in the 1704. Interestingly this is exactly what Eric Hider of DB Audio predicted. His view is, properly implemented, the old style DAC's are more than a match for the sigma deltas in all areas but detail retrieval.

    The above was a judgement purely based on sound quality. Sad to report the USB is next to useless. I used J River and up-sampled all my music to 32 bit 192 khz. It would not work - this is sad since it is a 32 bit dac. OK changed the up-sampling to 24 bit - it worked - for about 2 seconds - then crashed. Looks like it has problems with high res stuff. So I left everything is its original format and even disabled WAPSI. That got it to work - of sorts. It would crash every few songs and the whole machine needed to be rebooted. The songs had balance problems - more sound came out of the right speaker for some reason. I have no idea what caused that - there may even be something wrong with my source material that I will need to check. I used J River to covert all my lossless to APE and that may be the cause of it. I don't think so because I have listened to it a lot through headphones and never noticed any problems like that - but I wont put the blame on the WFS until I have totally ruled that out. It may even have something to do with WAPSI being disabled or some setting deep in KMixer - again I will need to investigate. Since I had planned to use the DAC as a USB dac and don't even have a coax or optical out, to me this renders the DAC just a very expensive paper weight. Really great for a 2K piece of gear. The WFS guys need to get this sorted out as a matter of urgency.

    My gut feeling right now is I want to get rid of the DAC. IMHO other DACs are better sonically - but then again they are more expensive. Its sound is almost certainty at least that of a $2K dac, but as a USB computer audio device it is useless. Since the Havana costs $1K there is zero doubt it is worth more than $1K - in fact considerably more I would say. On sound quality terms the $2K is fair - good value in fact - it probably is even worth a bit more. But the USB is for me a deal breaker. Products simply should not be sold with these driver problems.

    Thanks
    Bill
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    Bill, care to post your latest impressions? ;)
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited July 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Bill, care to post your latest impressions? ;)

    Dude - where's your write up w/ pics???

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited July 2010
    Yeah, I'd like to see some pics of these units in action. I haven't seen any pics with the screen on or anything...

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • bhobba
    bhobba Posts: 14
    edited August 2010
    Hi All

    I have had some feedback from EJ that he is getting a bit of flack about some of my posts and they do not reflect what I have said to him.

    To set the record straight my concern about the DAC had to do with not being able to get the USB working. This has now been resolved and is working flawlessly using kernel steaming. I have since become aware that problems with Windows 7 had to do with an update to windows. Having worked in the IT industry as a programmer for many years my experience is these types of problems are virtually impossible to avoid. Knowing this I now believe when I said products should not be released with these types of driver problems it was not a correct assessment of the true situation. From what I can gather extensive testing was done.

    My position on the sonic's is it is close to the best out there at any price. It has the best detail of any DAC I have ever heard. It totally outclassed an Havana is every area. It was close to Mike's reference DAC but in the areas of sibilance control, fluidity, liquidity, musicality and sound-staging that DAC was better. Not hugely better - it was close - but it was better. That DAC however is a lot more expensive, heavily tweaked, and in many ways an unfair comparison. The reason I mention it the original scuttlebutt is it was scary close to the best out there at any price. However I found it was 'just' close. I put just in quotes here because I don't want people to get the wrong idea - this is a tremendous accomplishment. I also want to add I have had a chance to listen using up-sampled 192/24 material and material recorded at at 192/24. This raised the bar even further and I want to do a direct comparison to Mikes DAC and the Tranquility DAC specifically checking this out. Although I can't preempt the outcome of that new comparison because audible memory is a poor thing, my feeling is using that it may be scary close or even equal. Without reservation I recommend this DAC. The only DAC I am aware of in its price range that may be its equal is the Tranquility and I will be doing a specific comparison to check it out. This is expected to occur sometime later this month.

    With regard to the balance issue please be aware this is of zero concern to me. I worked in the IT industry for many years and any new product goes through similar teething issues. That is only to be expected. Both EJ and the distributor I got it through here in Australia - Deep Hz Audio - are doing everything in their power to correct this quickly. Their after sales service is absolutely impeccable and a real credit to both organizations. Having problems does not concern me as much as how well they are corrected. This problem so far has been corrected in a flawless and timely manner to my complete satisfaction.

    Sorry guys - no pictures. But what I can tell you is a big DAC shootout is going to be occurring down our way on September 4th here in Aus on the Gold Coast at Lenehan Audio near where I live. People are coming from all over Aus and it will have the WFS, the Tranquility (providing I can get one in - I think I can - but I am in discussions with Eric Hider about it right now), a modded Oppo, Mikes new DAC, and a $6K NOS DAC made here in Aus. It will be done blind and people will be giving rankings on each of the DAC's.

    My latest impressions are, especially when up-sampled using J River, this is one sweet DAC that is quite likely, using up-sampling, now actually scary close to the best at any price - not 'just' close - but we need to wait confirmation from the shoot out and further private comparisons I intend do do. Again please be aware just close is still an excellent achievement - but if scary close then WOW.

    Will keep you guys informed.

    Thanks
    Bill
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2010
    Thanks for the update Bill.

    Just curious, have you compared singled ended vs. balanced outputs? I found that balanced had a fuller soundstage.


    I have another comparison coming up soon, then I'll write a small review.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • bhobba
    bhobba Posts: 14
    edited August 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Just curious, have you compared singled ended vs. balanced outputs? I found that balanced had a fuller soundstage.

    I only ever use single ended so I have not done a comparison. Balanced lines are used in pro audio to reduce noise. If the hot signal conductors carry opposite phase in a very noisy environment, common mode induction will cancel, so you have a very quiet signal. However, such circuits null even order distortion, leaving very low levels of odd order. Further they require more circuitry, which adds distortion, odd order, of its own. The argument is strong for minimum distortion in recorded music playback. But zero distortion is generally not possible. Therefore we should profile it so that even order, if possible, should be higher than odd. Even order distortion generally sounds better than odd. Balanced mitigates against this profiling. Because of this I avoid balanced which also saves money. If I was using pro-audio gear in noisy environments, the arguments would be entirely different. Off of soapbox now.

    Thanks
    Bill
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  • arossphoto
    arossphoto Posts: 1
    edited August 2010
    bhobba wrote: »
    To set the record straight my concern about the DAC had to do with not being able to get the USB working. This has now been resolved and is working flawlessly using kernel steaming.

    Would you mind providing some more info about what you did to resolve the USB problems, because I really have no idea what you mean by "kernel steaming"? I was reading the 6moons review of the DAC-2 and that reviewer seemed to have lots of problems with the drivers for Mac as well.

    I really like some of the stuff I'm hearing about the DAC-2, but the proprietary drivers concern me. Especially if people are reporting problems with them.

    Thanks.
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  • bhobba
    bhobba Posts: 14
    edited August 2010
    arossphoto wrote: »
    Would you mind providing some more info about what you did to resolve the USB problems, because I really have no idea what you mean by "kernel steaming"? I was reading the 6moons review of the DAC-2 and that reviewer seemed to have lots of problems with the drivers for Mac as well.

    It was simple. In J River you have a number of output options - direct, WASAPI, ASIO drivers, and Kernel Streaming. I simply selected Kernel Streaming. It communicates directly with the DAC. Chris at Computer Audiophile found J River on a Mac Mini to be better than Itunes. J River also works under Windows which for various reasons I prefer to the Mac OS - basically I reckon the guff you hear about the Mac being intuitive etc etc is a big marketing con. J River also supports just about all formats except for Apple Lossless (officially it does support it but has problems) including my favorite compressed format - Musepac which is way better than MP3. I use Monkey Audio as my lossless format which is a few percent more efficient than other formats and saves a bit of disk space. Thats for 44.1k - but for high res formats it is massively more efficient and I believe the future is high res. TAK is better again but J River does not support it right now so I stick with Monkeys Audio. Anyway I highly recommend J River. But stick to Itunes if you use an Iphone or Ipod as your remote.

    Thanks
    Bill
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2010
    A 3rd and 4th page were added, the review appears to now be complete: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/dac_2.html

    I agree with his assessments, the only thing I've heard best it so far was an Ayon CD-5. But I don't believe it wasn't a fair comparison since the DAC-2 may have had trouble driving the amp(s) with a 10k input impedance. A rematch is set for next week or the week after. I wish I could get my hands on a Esoteric D07 to compare it to.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • doctorcilantro
    doctorcilantro Posts: 2,028
    edited August 2010
    I still have some .ape files from almost 10 years ago! Nice format at some point a switched to FLAC.

    So who has a DAC2 in Tampa area?!?!

    You can use DC-Bass source filter for alac in JRMC.

    Also, plenty of remote options for iPhone with JRMC (Rivermote, native WebRemote, PlugPlayer).

    I'd like to hear people try WASAPI; I'have seen kernel streaming flat out not work with the HiFace in the past.
    bhobba wrote: »
    It was simple. In J River you have a number of output options - direct, WASAPI, ASIO drivers, and Kernel Streaming. I simply selected Kernel Streaming. It communicates directly with the DAC. Chris at Computer Audiophile found J River on a Mac Mini to be better than Itunes. J River also works under Windows which for various reasons I prefer to the Mac OS - basically I reckon the guff you hear about the Mac being intuitive etc etc is a big marketing con. J River also supports just about all formats except for Apple Lossless (officially it does support it but has problems) including my favorite compressed format - Musepac which is way better than MP3. I use Monkey Audio as my lossless format which is a few percent more efficient than other formats and saves a bit of disk space. Thats for 44.1k - but for high res formats it is massively more efficient and I believe the future is high res. TAK is better again but J River does not support it right now so I stick with Monkeys Audio. Anyway I highly recommend J River. But stick to Itunes if you use an Iphone or Ipod as your remote.

    Thanks
    Bill
    For Sale 2019:
    Tortuga Audio LDR passive preamp
    Decware EL34 amp
    Allnic H-1201 phono
    Zu Union Cubes
    iFi iDSD DAC, .5m UBS, iFI Gemini cable, Oyaide Tunami XLR 1.3M, Oyaide Tunami Speaker wire 1.5M, Beyerdynamic DT1990 headphones, PS Audio P3 power center

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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited August 2010
    Face wrote: »
    But I don't believe it wasn't a fair comparison since the DAC-2 may have had trouble driving the amp(s) with a 10k input impedance.
    10K isn't a very difficult load assuming it uses an opamp based analog stage.And don't you mean "preamp" or does the DAC2 have a built in pre?
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2010
    The DAC-2 has a variable output.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Beta
    Beta Posts: 267
    edited August 2010
    My DAC 2 arrived today. I just finished incorporating it into my system and powered it up. I still need to figure out how to dial it in. My immediate impression right out of the box is a huge improvement in all sonic aspects over my previous situation. Prior to the DAC 2, I was utilizing the DAC in a Cambridge Audio 840C.

    I acquire music from iTunes downloaded via apple lossless. I run an iPod classic through a Wadia 170 iTransport utilizing a Channel Islands VDC-9.0 power supply upgrade. I am using PS Audio AC-5 power cords for both the VDC-9.0 and the DAC 2. Both AC-5s go into a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. I am running the 170 iTransport to the DAC 2 via the COAX 1 terminal (set at fixed) with a MIT Magnum Digital IC. I am running the DAC 2 into a Parasound Halo JC 2 preamp via MIT Shotgun S1.3 Proline ICs. The JC 2 is mated with a Parasound Halo A 21 amp. The JC 2 and A 21 are integrated with Shotgun S1 Proline ICs. Both the preamp and amp are also run through the Power Plant Premier via AC-5s.

    The MIT Magnum Digital IC and the Shotgun S1.3 ICs are also brand new, so no burn in yet. Therefore, the immediate significant sonic improvement before any burn in is highly encouraging.

    My sound stage has opened up significantly. Separation, detail and clarity is far superior to that of my prior situation.

    The DAC in the 840C is decent. However, I found it to be a bit bright. Therefore, I was looking for a DAC that is warmer and more laid back. The DAC 2, right out of the box, is much warmer and laid back than the DAC in the 840C.

    The DAC 2 has immediately more than surpassed my expectations.
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited August 2010
    I'm still waiting for the very informative, in depth, detailed, pictorial review by Face.....:D:p

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • Polkitup2
    Polkitup2 Posts: 1,622
    edited November 2010
    bhobba wrote: »
    It was simple. In J River you have a number of output options - direct, WASAPI, ASIO drivers, and Kernel Streaming. I simply selected Kernel Streaming. It communicates directly with the DAC.

    I am running J River Media Jukebox and do not see kernal streaming as an output option. I see direct sound, disk writer, and wave out as options. Do I need to buy the full version of J River to allow me to utilize the capabilities of my Wyred DAC-2 to the fullest? Thanks.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2010
    Did you install W4S's drivers before or after J River? I remember it took some fumbling around to get the DAC-2 to work via USB with J River. I had no problem with Foobar though.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Polkitup2
    Polkitup2 Posts: 1,622
    edited November 2010
    I installed J River after the WFS driver. It worked from the get go, sounds great, but I am not sure if I have everything configured optimally on the WFS driver side and the J River side. In another post I mentioned that the DAC always displays whatever value for the Khz that is configured in the WFS driver advanced settings. Doesn't seem to matter if I am playing a 44 Khz file or a 192 KHz file. If the setting in the driver is set to 192 Khz, that's what the DAC displays - even if I am playing a 44 Khz file.
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  • Polkitup2
    Polkitup2 Posts: 1,622
    edited November 2010
    This article, http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Windows-7-Audio-J-River-Media-Center-14-Configuration seems to describe the concern I have regarding J River and Windows 7. It says:

    "Simple Test:
    Users who have a DAC that displays the current sample rate being fed from the music server can run an easy test to determine which Mode is in use. Simply play two tracks with different sample rates. If Exclusive Mode is in use the sample rate on the DAC should change. If Shared Mode is in use the Default Format (sample rate) that is set in the audio device Properties >> Advanced tab will be displayed on the DAC. If the Default Format is set to 24 bit, 48000 Hz (Studio Quality), playback of a single 16/44.1 track will provide a quick answer to the Exclusive or Shared Mode question as well."

    From this it looks like I am running in shared mode. It goes on to further state:

    "DirectSound & Wave Out - DirectSound and Wave Out are additional methods of sending digital audio output to a sound card or device such as a USB DAC. Neither of these methods currently bypass Windows Vista / Windows 7 mixers or the multiple layers of the Windows operating system. Severely degraded sound is possible using either DirectSound or Wave Out. That said it is possible to achieve bit perfect audio while using either method but it's not advised. Higher latency and difficulty maintaining bit perfect playback are two major drawbacks to using DirectSound or Wave Out. "

    These are the options I have to choose from in the J River freebie media jukebox version. So maybe I do need the full version. Might have to drop EJ a note and see what's going on here.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2010
    I'm in Exclusive Mode and use Kernal Streaming via USB, but I have the full version so I'm not sure how much help that is to you. FYI, I'm running W7x64.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Polkitup2
    Polkitup2 Posts: 1,622
    edited November 2010
    Thanks Mike, that was the nugget of info I needed. I upgraded to the full version and now the Wyred DAC displays the appropriate resolution. The free version of J River does not have kernal streaming as an output option. :smile:
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2010
    Glad I could help!
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Polkitup2
    Polkitup2 Posts: 1,622
    edited February 2011
    I saw this on the computeraudiophile forum. Sounds like an SE version of the DAC-2 may soon be available. ItemAudio is a Wyred dealer.

    Submitted by ItemAudio on Thu, 02/03/2011 - 03:52. Joined: 10/02/2010 .:. Offline .:. Comments: 80
    @gypsykirk
    As others have commented, the base design and conversion algorithms of the Sabre DAC are very well sorted: the quality of the implementation depends largely on the power supply.

    The 21dB improvement we're seeing in dynamic range of the prototype Special Edition DAC2 is almost entirely down to the ultra-clean power we're giving it.

    The core technology for this is in the final stages of worldwide patent protection: as soon as we're clear of the red tape, we'll be able to release further information, and retro-fit the upgrade to DAC1 or DAC2 models.

    Conscious of the need to keep 'advertising' posts from certain contributors under tight control, I won't be able to say too much about it beyond the specs, but as you might guess, we're big fans of this DAC!

    w this
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  • punk-roc
    punk-roc Posts: 1,150
    edited February 2011
    lol, boo! I just ordered my DAC-2 hahaha

    Jason
    2-Channel - So far...
    Pre: Dodd ELP
    DAC: W4S-Dac2
    Source(s): Computer and Denon 2910
    Amp: Parasound HCA-1200II
    Speakers: LSi9s - Vr3 Fortress Mod
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  • doctorcilantro
    doctorcilantro Posts: 2,028
    edited February 2011
    Might be fun to A/B the Zodiac+ against an SE DAC2......:biggrin:
    For Sale 2019:
    Tortuga Audio LDR passive preamp
    Decware EL34 amp
    Allnic H-1201 phono
    Zu Union Cubes
    iFi iDSD DAC, .5m UBS, iFI Gemini cable, Oyaide Tunami XLR 1.3M, Oyaide Tunami Speaker wire 1.5M, Beyerdynamic DT1990 headphones, PS Audio P3 power center

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  • punk-roc
    punk-roc Posts: 1,150
    edited February 2011
    I just got my W4S Dac-2 hooked up yesterday.. currently burning-in as we (I) type. Sounded pretty impressive right out of the box, a tad bright as predicted however.

    Jason
    2-Channel - So far...
    Pre: Dodd ELP
    DAC: W4S-Dac2
    Source(s): Computer and Denon 2910
    Amp: Parasound HCA-1200II
    Speakers: LSi9s - Vr3 Fortress Mod
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