What are the symptoms of tube(s) going bad?

polkatese
polkatese Posts: 6,767
edited April 2010 in 2 Channel Audio
As tube aged, and slowly dying, what would be the symptoms or traits? This is specifically on the output stage of a CDP, if it matters.

TIA
I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
Post edited by polkatese on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
«1

Comments

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2010
    Static, pops and/or distortion are signs a tube is going bad.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2010
    and it is intermittent too? there were days that it didn't show this, but today it did the static, and signal corruption that last half-a-second randomly at an odd interval. Doing a power cycle through the CDP seems to cure that at times.

    Thank you Jesse.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2010
    flat sounding, a little lower output. But as Jesse said.......snap, crackle, pop, hissing which gets louder and softer. Red glow rather than orange glow inside the envelope. What brand tube? Many current production Chinese and Russian tubes have a significantly shorter life span than NOS from the 50's-70's.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,500
    edited April 2010
    I've had dirty pins/tube sockets cause problems like that too.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2010
    It's a Russian Sovtek 6H30pi. Can't say anything about the glow since it is completely enclosed inside. So far the only issue is the one I described in #3.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2010
    Interesting Rich. I've never removed it from its socket since 2004. I already ordered one from Dedicated Audio. I am really hoping this is the culprit, since it would be a major bummer if it's something else. Love this baby and it's been trouble-free since I bought it.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2010
    Yes, clean the PINS sometimes that helps. 2004? You may be due for a new tube.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,500
    edited April 2010
    It's worth a try. I've had it happen with Gold plated pins too. I have these great Sylvania Gold Brand 5687's with Gold plated pins I loved in my CD player. Every now and then I'd have to wiggle the tubes in the sockets to get the static to stop, or to get a channel to play. I found some Sylvania Gold Brand with steel pins and now life is gooder.:cool:

    EDIT: Just a disclaimer, touching a hot tube with bare fingers can sizzle the skin.:eek:
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2010
    polkatese wrote: »
    and it is intermittent too? there were days that it didn't show this, but today it did the static, and signal corruption that last half-a-second randomly at an odd interval.

    It can be.
    Doing a power cycle through the CDP seems to cure that at times.

    You mean turning it off and on again?
    I already ordered one from Dedicated Audio.

    Is there just the one?


    Just a disclaimer, touching a hot tube with bare fingers can sizzle the skin.

    LOL, I would have thought you would know not to touch a tube, hot or cold, with your bare fingers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,500
    edited April 2010
    F1nut wrote: »

    LOL, I would have thought you would know not to touch a tube, hot or cold, with your bare fingers.

    Just don't want anyone hurt is all....;)

    We of the RAS (Rockford Audio Society) do use gloves to change tubes. I'm not sure if the other guys wiggle theirs or not, gloved or bare handed.:D
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2010
    I'm not sure if the other guys wiggle theirs or not, gloved or bare handed.

    Hehe....:D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited April 2010
    Also,, if the tube is in a pre amp circuit, you might experience a loss of volume.I've been playing with a tubed phono preamp,and had just rolled some Sovtek 12ax7lps in her,,about 3 days later I noticed a loss of volume in the right channel,,sure enough,after changing tubes the Sovetek was the culprit,,when I get my tube testor back from an unamed polkie I'll test it,,I'm sure one of the sections has gone bad.Also,,take heed in what the others have said--CLEAN PINS--sorry for the long winded explanation--I feel better now--Have a nice day.:)
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited April 2010
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    ...I'm not sure if the other guys wiggle theirs or not, gloved or bare handed.:D
    F1nut wrote: »
    Hehe....:D


    My first thought, Jesse~ :D



    You KNOW for sure a tube is bad when it goes up in a magnificent flaming pyre, leaving a pile of molten silica....
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited April 2010
    You haven't lived until you've seen a tube blow up within itself, like a supernova.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited April 2010
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Just don't want anyone hurt is all....;)

    We of the RAS (Rockford Audio Society) do use gloves to change tubes. I'm not sure if the other guys wiggle theirs or not, gloved or bare handed.:D

    Those are some really great gloves Rich. Where can I get a pair?

    To the OP when I owned the VTL 5.5 pre (for a short time) I had a tube go south. When I tapped the case or the platform is was setting on I could hear the tapping coming through the speakers. Turned out it was a tube going microphonic. I rolled in a full set of JAN NOS tubes and the problem was resolved.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    You mean turning it off and on again?
    Is there just the one?

    Jesse, yes on both counts.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jhw59
    jhw59 Posts: 348
    edited April 2010
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    I've had dirty pins/tube sockets cause problems like that too.

    what does one use to clean sockets, etc?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited April 2010
    www.caig.com

    I've used the SWPP with great results on tube sockets. Or just wiggle it around a little and let the clamps break the contact point up.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Yes, clean the PINS sometimes that helps. 2004? You may be due for a new tube.

    so the question is: how long a tube with moderate use supposed to last?
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2010
    polkatese wrote: »
    so the question is: how long a tube with moderate use supposed to last?

    That is the million dollar question and it varies. I can say from what I've read NOS tubes tend to last longer on average. Some of my favorite tubes (Telefunken, Valvo) are rated at 10,000 hours but routinely get 15,000 hours in the pre-amp position.

    Most Chinese and new issue Russian tubes are lucky to get 3000-5000 hours. But I'm just quoting averages based on what I've read. There are many that get beyond that.

    Power tubes are a completely different beast as far as longevity but in general older tubes last a bit longer.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited April 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    That is the million dollar question and it varies. I can say from what I've read NOS tubes tend to last longer on average. Some of my favorite tubes (Telefunken, Valvo) are rated at 10,000 hours but routinely get 15,000 hours in the pre-amp position.

    Most Chinese and new issue Russian tubes are lucky to get 3000-5000 hours. But I'm just quoting averages based on what I've read. There are many that get beyond that.

    Power tubes are a completely different beast as far as longevity but in general older tubes last a bit longer.

    H9

    According to Musical Fidelity and Jesse, the tubes in my Tri-Vista preamp stage are rated at 100,000 hours. Something to do with the use of tubes from the Russian MIGs.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited April 2010
    I think the data from Musical Fidelity, the manufacturer, would suffice.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2010
    Actually Joe, the tubes were originally used in the guidance systems for US missiles, something Musical Fidelity, the manufacturer won't tell you. They are also rated for an altitude of 60,000 feet.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited April 2010
    I was actually joking about the MIGs but there you go, they were used in some kind of aeronautics.

    What I wasn't joking about was the 100,000 hours, I believe this IS what they are rated. Even if it is drummed up a bit it's still impressive and you are correct they are nice tubes.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited April 2010
    Colossus

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer

    and the Foxbat

    http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-25_foxbat.pl

    I had some NOS tubes that I bought from a Russian Gent,, came in a plastic tray with lid,, had the "Red Rocket" logo on the boxes,,kinda cool actually,, sold em to a third world country to help start their one plane airforce.;)
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited April 2010
    That's some cool reading George.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited April 2010
    thanks--what got me going was the fact that the Russians relied heavily on tubes,because they would still operate in certain "nuclear" conditions when other electronics would not,, as in communication and guidi ence systems,,the fact the some manufacturers use a tube that is soldered/secured in place-speaks volumes.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited April 2010
    george daniel wrote: »
    thanks--what got me going was the fact that the Russians relied heavily on tubes,because they would still operate in certain "nuclear" conditions when other electronics would not,, as in communication and guidi ence systems,,the fact the some manufacturers use a tube that is soldered/secured in place-speaks volumes.

    Yep, the tubes in my preamp stage are soldered in and from what I understand from Jesse, they are a bear to replace. I have the replacements but I hope I never have to do so.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2010
    Soldered? wow, that's hardcore!

    so, those jets with tubes, do you think they care if the tube turned microphonics? can they tell just by listening to the engine rev? :p

    I am waiting for the replacement to arrive, I am hoping THAT's the problem. It is frustrating when it only happens intermittently.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2010
    Polkatese, I bet that's your issue. Have you cleaned the pins and lightly wiggled it around in the socket just to be sure?
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter