And the quest continues.........

heiney9

I just finally got comfortable with my new tube pre-amp. I was surfing the 'net today and I came across a new First Watt amp (F7). After reading the extremely lengthy review from 6moons. I WANT ONE.

http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/firstwatt2/1.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/firstwatt2/F7.pdf

Oh, just look at the simplicity. Look at the parts count, very simple class A circuit. Negative and positive feedback to achieve equilibrium. A new take, the man never ceases to amaze me in his creativity and ability to make extremely musical amplifiers. This one will run rather inefficient speakers too!











Go fund me................lol

H9

heiney9

F7 Power Amplifier


The F7 is a very unique power amplifier, a two-stage push-pull JFET/MOSFET

topology with fewer parts than any First Watt amplifier to date and incorporating

a very interesting balance of very low negative voltage feedback and a little bit of

positive current feedback to give an astonishing measure of control over reactive

loudspeaker loads.

maximillian

Retail is $3000. Forgive me but... the Bill of Materials of that thing looks like it would total $100. Are there components on the underside of the PCB's that hide more stuff?

heiney9

Really, $100? I bet the transformer cost as much. The case probably $100. The parts aren't exotic but they are all very high quality and very, very closely matched. Hand assembled by Nelson Pass himself.

If this were a DIY hack, perhaps $3K is too much, but considering the pedigree and support as well as it being a very limited run of a unique topography by an audio legend. $3K is a bargain.

Those attributes have to count for something.

If seen lesser designs by lesser designers sell for a LOT more.

In fact there should be a premium because it has FEWER parts. You have no idea how hard it is to build a 2 stage power amplifier with very few parts and still have it sound superb with most other associated gear.........that is a feat in itself.

H9

Nightfall

I bet the chassis alone cost them more than $100, especially in the small numbers that botique audio manufacturers produce.

heiney9

Based on it's performance (all First Watt amps), the pedigree of Nelson Pass, the R&D, parts and build quality, chassis, etc, etc. $3K is a bargain. He could charge twice as much and still sell out the run.

H9

motorhead43026

Impressive, seems to be a bargain @ this price. Although still way above my pay scale.

gimpod

maximillian wrote: »

Retail is $3000. Forgive me but... the Bill of Materials of that thing looks like it would total $100. Are there components on the underside of the PCB's that hide more stuff?

I don't even know where to begin with a comment like this other than to say if your buying an amp based on the parts count and complexity your missing the whole point to good audio, It's the sound! that counts not the number of parts.

heiney9

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Impressive, seems to be a bargain @ this price. Although still way above my pay scale.

Yes, I don't tend to spend that kind of $$$ for single piece, but I'm not getting any younger....lol. Definitely can afford (with a little scrimping in other area's....like stop buying tubes).

Rarely do you pay MSRP for something like this. Reno Hi-Fi (a Pass/First Watt dealer) has one listed for $2795.

H9

mrbiron

Call them and see how much they'd give you for the Aleph30 in trade.

heiney9

Yeah, I'm thinking about it hard. I won't give up my Aleph until I know the F7 would integrate well. But Reno will work out a demo period. Plus, now I have to build an AI-1 since I know the F/W designs are NOT common ground.

It's on the radar, come Fall it might be in my rig. I am also waiting for the May issue of Absolute Sound to be available on-line as Dick Olsher does a review.

H9

deucekazoo

maximillian wrote: »

Retail is $3000. Forgive me but... the Bill of Materials of that thing looks like it would total $100. Are there components on the underside of the PCB's that hide more stuff?

Dude you have no clue!
I am in the process of getting parts to build my own Aleph J amp. I have all the little parts but still need the case and hardware. Right now I am sitting at $550 just for the electrical parts. The parts cost more than you think they would. This is going to be my winter project to pair with my Monitor 7s.

F1nut

Nelson Pass is a hack.

pumpkinman

F1nut wrote: »

Nelson Pass is a hack.

maximillian

heiney9 wrote: »

Really, $100? I bet the transformer cost as much. The case probably $100. The parts aren't exotic but they are all very high quality and very, very closely matched. Hand assembled by Nelson Pass himself.

If this were a DIY hack, perhaps $3K is too much, but considering the pedigree and support as well as it being a very limited run of a unique topography by an audio legend. $3K is a bargain.

I was part in jest when I said $100, but it is still relatively inexpensive to make. I am not questioning the audio performance. I have built his DIY B1 buffer pre. IIRC it's about $50 in parts and sounds amazing. But I didn't pay an equally amazing price for it either. If he hand builds this thing himself and hand tunes every one afterward, then sure $3K is fine. But in quantity this thing is way over priced for the parts that go into it. I have worked for a couple of electronic manufacturers making specialized electronics so I am familiar with this type of assembly.

Chinese manufacturing is delivering good quality for really cheap prices. They can make the enclosure for way less than $100. I know, I have spec'ed them. First time they make a custom enclosure it can often have defects, but if you work with the manufacturing house on the first pass quality issues they will tune their process and get it down right. They can do cases just like this for a lot less even in a few hundred per year quantities. The cases will look good and not feel like thin metal was used.

I am amazed at the pricing that you can get from China. TI and Analog will quote me volume pricing, then I can get 1/2 of that for the same part in China. No, it's not counterfeit; since TI and Analog will honor the pricing for other programs too.

Here's an example...

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/analog-devices-inc/ADAU1452WBCPZ-RL/ADAU1452WBCPZ-RL-ND/4901180

It's $15 each on a 2K reel. AD pricing is $4 for 1K. China: $2.38. Weird.

MrBuhl

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/ele/5640355748.html

This has been around the DC region for a while - I've looked at the ad several times!

Paradoxex

gimpod wrote: »

maximillian wrote: »

Retail is $3000. Forgive me but... the Bill of Materials of that thing looks like it would total $100. Are there components on the underside of the PCB's that hide more stuff?

I don't even know where to begin with a comment like this other than to say if your buying an amp based on the parts count and complexity your missing the whole point to good audio, It's the sound! that counts not the number of parts.

Agreed - it is the sound that counts. Which is why it's hard to buy into either side of the argument at this point. No one here has heard this amp - no one here has any clue if it sounds like heaven or turds jangling in a jar.

I love reading this forum, but sometimes it gets trippy in here, such as when a bunch of posters are tripping over themselves to justify how a bunch of electric components is worth exponentially more than its face value for reasons that no one really can justify without hearing the amp itself.

At the end of the day, it is how it sounds to the buyer that matters. The pedigree of Nelson Pass, the sound of the amp, all of the other subjective components of this piece only have relative value. If all of that is worth more than $3k, then this amp is a bargain. Otherwise it's a bunch of components and a subsidy to Nelson Pass's children's future. Either way the verdict is out until its in someone's room.

tonyb

gimpod wrote: »

maximillian wrote: »

Retail is $3000. Forgive me but... the Bill of Materials of that thing looks like it would total $100. Are there components on the underside of the PCB's that hide more stuff?

I don't even know where to begin with a comment like this other than to say if your buying an amp based on the parts count and complexity your missing the whole point to good audio, It's the sound! that counts not the number of parts.

Absolutely pal, always comes down to the sound.....not brand name, parts used, or even price. That's the real worth in audio to any individual.

Brock,
I see that F7 is using multiple smaller caps instead of the coke cans. Same philosophy as the McCormacks. I find it interesting how NP is using negative and positive feedback to further adjust the sound of this amp. Most shoot for zero negative feedback so there must be something to his idea.

Regardless, FW amps are nothing to brush aside. I would certainly look into snagging one. Pretty confident if you sell half that horde of tubes you have, you'd be there in no time.

lightman1

Nellson Pass ate lead paint chips when he was growing up and gets his parts from radio shack.

tonyb

lightman1 wrote: »

Nellson Pass ate lead paint chips when he was growing up and gets his parts from radio shack.

He did no such thing.....he was always just a plain 'ol glue sniffer. lol

Your gonna make Brock drive out to Iowa to break some street lights ? Brave man..lol

heiney9

tonyb wrote: »

gimpod wrote: »

maximillian wrote: »

Retail is $3000. Forgive me but... the Bill of Materials of that thing looks like it would total $100. Are there components on the underside of the PCB's that hide more stuff?

I don't even know where to begin with a comment like this other than to say if your buying an amp based on the parts count and complexity your missing the whole point to good audio, It's the sound! that counts not the number of parts.

Absolutely pal, always comes down to the sound.....not brand name, parts used, or even price. That's the real worth in audio to any individual.

Brock,
I see that F7 is using multiple smaller caps instead of the coke cans. Same philosophy as the McCormacks. I find it interesting how NP is using negative and positive feedback to further adjust the sound of this amp. Most shoot for zero negative feedback so there must be something to his idea.

Regardless, FW amps are nothing to brush aside. I would certainly look into snagging one. Pretty confident if you sell half that horde of tubes you have, you'd be there in no time.

I will own this one, maybe not until after Summer as spending seems to peak during the Summer fun time. I need to do a little more research as the owners manual says it doesn't mate well with tube pre-amps since the input impedance is 10K ohms. Also need to get an AI-1 built.

If anyone read the end of the 6moons article it's a very interesting hands on look at how many watts you really need. He threw 5 different types of speaker and speaker loads at the F7, a Pass 150.8 and some super exotic amp. The F7 is 30 wpc the other several times that. Even into 85dB sensitivity speakers in the end he felt the lower power F7 didn't loose a step against the big boys.

I've been saying that about my Aleph 30, have yet to find the limits as it plays loud enough to drive you from the room.

You don't need a 100 wpc.

Yes Tony, NP has always used many smaller caps compared to few big caps. The F7 has 12 - 15,000 uF caps in the PS.

My Aleph has 12 - 10,000 uF in the PS.

H9

heiney9

I envisioned a circuit with only four transistors and four resistors – the bare minimum for an amplifier of this type, where all the Fets are operated in Common-Source mode, giving both voltage and current gain. Two complementary input Jfets drive two complementary power Mosfets, and the output voltage is fed back to the Source pins of the Jfets in what is commonly called “Current Feedback” (CFA)


So...
I broke the glass on the wall box labeled
DESIGN EMERGENCY.

Inside was a single resistor labeled
DANGER - POSITIVE FEEDBACK.

I went back to the previous circuit.
And I put that resistor in the amplifier...
A little explanation is in order. The relationship between an amplifier and a
loudspeaker is a bit like a dance. Both sides have their own complexities, but
the point is for them to get along well. The amplifier designer, not generally
having control of what speaker is used, usually chooses the amplifier as the
dominant partner by making it a pure voltage source. In the typical voltage source,
negative feedback in the amplifier is used to define the voltage across
the loudspeaker regardless of the current through the speaker.

This represents the “have it my way” approach to amplification, and large
hardware with lots of feedback are good at this. Most loudspeakers are
designed around the assumption of a low impedance voltage source.

(With the F7) Modest amounts of negative feedback are balanced in counterpoint to a smaller amount of positive feedback, creating an equilibrium where the output
impedance approaches zero, improving transient and frequency response.

Of course you can achieve a similar effect with tons of negative feedback, but I
think this is more elegant and sounds better.

Also, I put more capacitance in the power supply and found a clever way to
further reduce the effect of high frequency DAC noise and environmental RF.
This is a different amplifier. The diversity of audio taste being what it is, not
everyone will prefer it. I presume that a portion of audiophiles will like it - N.P.

heiney9

maximillian wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Really, $100? I bet the transformer cost as much. The case probably $100. The parts aren't exotic but they are all very high quality and very, very closely matched. Hand assembled by Nelson Pass himself.

If this were a DIY hack, perhaps $3K is too much, but considering the pedigree and support as well as it being a very limited run of a unique topography by an audio legend. $3K is a bargain.

I was part in jest when I said $100, but it is still relatively inexpensive to make. I am not questioning the audio performance. I have built his DIY B1 buffer pre. IIRC it's about $50 in parts and sounds amazing. But I didn't pay an equally amazing price for it either. If he hand builds this thing himself and hand tunes every one afterward, then sure $3K is fine. But in quantity this thing is way over priced for the parts that go into it. I have worked for a couple of electronic manufacturers making specialized electronics so I am familiar with this type of assembly.

Chinese manufacturing is delivering good quality for really cheap prices. They can make the enclosure for way less than $100. I know, I have spec'ed them. First time they make a custom enclosure it can often have defects, but if you work with the manufacturing house on the first pass quality issues they will tune their process and get it down right. They can do cases just like this for a lot less even in a few hundred per year quantities. The cases will look good and not feel like thin metal was used.

I am amazed at the pricing that you can get from China. TI and Analog will quote me volume pricing, then I can get 1/2 of that for the same part in China. No, it's not counterfeit; since TI and Analog will honor the pricing for other programs too.

Here's an example...

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/analog-devices-inc/ADAU1452WBCPZ-RL/ADAU1452WBCPZ-RL-ND/4901180

It's $15 each on a 2K reel. AD pricing is $4 for 1K. China: $2.38. Weird.

I wasn't going to respond because you clearly really don't get it. Less is more and less is extremely hard to design and still have a somewhat universal amp that you can sell commercially.

It takes a lot of skill and a lot of tinkering and thinking outside the box. Many of his First Watt stuff is several years in tinkering to get it just where he wants it. They all sound different and are all different approaches to circuit design. They sound fantastic as well.

This is all made, assembled and tested/tinkered in the USA.

Some get it, some don't.............if you don't that's cool. $3K for a stellar amp of that pedigree is a no brainer for me. $10K is a bit much for me, but others seem fine with it.

H9

FTGV

F1nut wrote: »

Nelson Pass is a hack.

Albeit a reasonably accomplished one.

As for parts cost the transformer appears to be a Canadian sourced Plitron.I questimate in the $70-$100 range.The metal work if American sourced maybe $200 ish.Parts count may be comparitively low but knowing how to use them is what counts.Unlike many boutique audio products at least you are getting a thoroughly engineered,expertly built,good sounding and reliable package.Other than that I can't think of why it would be worth $3k?
As for the filter caps,15,000 uf isn't small.With modern electrolytics they are able to squeeze a lot more capacitance into a much smaller package.(No need for pop can size caps).Also the low 25 volt rating of these also allows for significant size reduction.
The total capacitance is much greater than one would typically see with a low powered amplifer.The constant high current draw due to it being a Class A design will benifit even more from a large filter bank than would a similarily power rated Class A/B design.

maximillian

The transformer looks like it's from Hammond Manufacturing. It's 300VA and should cost around $50 in quantity. But since these appear to be made individually the price is around $75. 300VA torroid transformers can be purchased much less however.

Nichicon electrolytics at 15,000uF, 25V are about $2 each from Digikey (Q100).

The enclosure is 3 pieces of sheet metal, a 1/4" thick stock of aluminum, and two heatsink extrusions (maybe from Aavid). Volumes really matter here, but should easily be max $30 in volume (includes finish).

I never questioned the audio performance. But these can be made and sold for a lot less if the company wanted to. $3K is priced for $1K in total cost (materials, labor, and overhead). But that's not how these are made or sold, so the cost of the unit isn't important.

txcoastal1

Then there is the 50/50...60/40 dealer distribution split
Like mentioned before most audio doesn't sell for 100% MSRP

FTGV

The transformer is a Plitron.However it appears to be one of their standard off the shelf units,not custom wound for FW.$30 for a custom brushed alum face plate and anodized extruded heat sinks?Not likely.IIRC the heatsinks extrusion is custom for FW.

maximillian

I have spec'ed similar finished enclosures (sans heat sinks) from China for less than $10 and they look great. Custom extrusions for the heatsink can be had for $10 each side. This is for quantities of about 300 or more. Working with aluminum is one thing that the Chinese have gotten really good at and they do it for real cheap. FW probably doesn't buy from China though so their cost is considerably higher.

I didn't see Piltron on the label but do see "Manufacturing", so I assumed Hammond.

txcoastal1, typical dealer discount for companies I have worked for is 1/3 discount.

txcoastal1

Most of the audio companies I do business with is 50/50...60/40
Even through distribution 50/40/10 as the distributor get the other 10%

heiney9

Max, you ought to go into business. Sounds like you'll be rich in no time since you can build amps on the cheap.

H9

P.s. This is a completely ridiculous discussion.

Paradoxex

Of course it is. It is your money and no one can disprove the design at this point.
You are paying a premium for the Pass pedigree and the exclusivity of owning what is essentially a boutique item.

No need to defend that.