DIY Sonotube build
EndersShadow
Posts: 17,580
So here's the deal. I need some suggestions/help with a Sonotube build I am thinking about. My original build was based off one by Ben. He used a Dayton Audio 15" Titanic Mk III powered by a Adcom amp bridged to provide 850 wpc. The spec's he used are below.
. I will also more than likely look to get an SMS-1 so I can EQ them better (since my AVR doesn?t EQ the sub at all)
As an aside I am not against using something like PVC if its worth the extra cost (not sure how much more it is offhand) but am trying to keep this build overall on the cheap end (i.e. under 350 if possible).
I plan to add 3 inch legs and possibly build a platform to connect to them and add spikes for extra weight and may even make that platform out of something like granite or marble if its warranted (I have a connection to get it made cheap) to keep things from bouncing around. Might also do that with the top cap?.
I really like this build minus the vinyl on the side.
I had some time this morning to do some digging. I found its darn near impossible to find sonotube in diameters OVER 12". So I went to parts express and found another viable option for me (and its cheaper). 1 Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12" Reference HO. It can handle right around the wattage I would be throwing at it with no problems. I also found a decent passive radiator that wasnt too much more as well., the Dayton Audio NS310-PR 12" Cast Frame Passive Radiator The cost of both of these is under what the other Dayton 15" sub would be. But with a Passive Radiator I have a bit more flexibility with Tuning and dont have to worry about port length and chuffing. I am not totally sure though I need the passive radiator if I can get some help figuring out my port length.
I built a WinISD file for it and attached the spec's I have loaded in as well as a graph of the SPL. Its pretty damned flat down to ~25 hz then it drops like a rock, which I am semi OK with. I know playing with the weight on the passive radiator helps elongate that drop, but not sure how big a deal it is. Also not sure what SPL I should be shooting for as a minimum at 20 hz.
The WinISD graph can be found here
Thoughts?
I am going to be using 1 channel from a Sunfire Signature amp which will provide ~750 watts @ 4 ohm. If I build another I will be using another channel from the same amp15" Dayton Titanic MIII driver 800 watts RMS
Total height with top End Cap = 55"
Gross volume=6 ft
effective= 5.1
SonoTube=18"*42"
port=6*30 20hz
Estimated weight=80lbs
2'" thick woven poly batting material applied to cylinder walls
. I will also more than likely look to get an SMS-1 so I can EQ them better (since my AVR doesn?t EQ the sub at all)As an aside I am not against using something like PVC if its worth the extra cost (not sure how much more it is offhand) but am trying to keep this build overall on the cheap end (i.e. under 350 if possible).
I plan to add 3 inch legs and possibly build a platform to connect to them and add spikes for extra weight and may even make that platform out of something like granite or marble if its warranted (I have a connection to get it made cheap) to keep things from bouncing around. Might also do that with the top cap?.
I really like this build minus the vinyl on the side.
I had some time this morning to do some digging. I found its darn near impossible to find sonotube in diameters OVER 12". So I went to parts express and found another viable option for me (and its cheaper). 1 Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12" Reference HO. It can handle right around the wattage I would be throwing at it with no problems. I also found a decent passive radiator that wasnt too much more as well., the Dayton Audio NS310-PR 12" Cast Frame Passive Radiator The cost of both of these is under what the other Dayton 15" sub would be. But with a Passive Radiator I have a bit more flexibility with Tuning and dont have to worry about port length and chuffing. I am not totally sure though I need the passive radiator if I can get some help figuring out my port length.
I built a WinISD file for it and attached the spec's I have loaded in as well as a graph of the SPL. Its pretty damned flat down to ~25 hz then it drops like a rock, which I am semi OK with. I know playing with the weight on the passive radiator helps elongate that drop, but not sure how big a deal it is. Also not sure what SPL I should be shooting for as a minimum at 20 hz.
The WinISD graph can be found here
Thoughts?
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
Post edited by EndersShadow on
Comments
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Here is a source for larger diameter sonotubes...
http://americanpaperproducts.com/
You can order them cut to length too.
If you do go with sonotube, do you have the ability to cut circles for the ends? If not, one option can be to have the ends oversized and connect them externally. Squeeze the ends down onto the sonotube by running all-thread between them. You can even dress up the all-thread by painting it. Slide some clear PVC tubing over it then and you just about won't recognize it. Looks pretty good.
An option to cover without trying to wrap it with cloth is to buy simple cheap rope at the hardware store and wrap it evenly with it. Haven't done it, but wondered if spraying it with heavy coats of a clear finish might look cool and hold it well.
Just some thoughts....
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
Here is a source for larger diameter sonotubes...
http://americanpaperproducts.com/
You can order them cut to length too.
Nice will have to check them out. More than likely though going to stick with the 12" stuff I can buy locally. Its just cheaper and easier to deal with.If you do go with sonotube, do you have the ability to cut circles for the ends?
I do not, but my family in WI are carpenters. More than likely the actual building/fitting would take place under their supervision, if I can't find someone locally to help me out with it. Final Assembly would all be done here in Indy. The bottom base would be fabricated locally since I think I will probably use some sort of black granite or marble to weigh it down sufficently and adds some WAF.
Regarding how it looks, my brother in law sells flooring for a living, so I planned to carpet it similar to the SVS cylinders. The interior would have some sort of polyfil adheared to the inside."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Are you stuck on having it standing or would a laying on its side one be better.
I have helped build a couple many years ago mostly for car audio but the rules still apply.
Hear is a laying model.
Or there is always the standing style.
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Are you stuck on having it standing
Not totally stuck, but 99% there since I am looking at about 4-5 cubic feet and using 12" of floor space as opposed to 48" is much easier.
I really like the tube finish on the laying version, and the base on the vertical one. I am not sure on where I want to put the binding posts, but there will only be one set since the sub is only a SVC.
Were those ported, sealed or useing a passive radiator?
Also stupid question, but how do you make sure you dont bottom out the sub by going too low? I know on my car audio amp there is a subsonic filter, but I dont see those on any of the plate amps (and I know the Sunfire doesnt have that)."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I have a buddy that built one with two 15" drivers and tuned to 17hz ported and i believe 6'tall. I an in the process of getting a hold of him to see if he still has his plans.
Ivan -
I have a buddy that built one with two 15" drivers and tuned to 17hz ported and i believe 6'tall. I an in the process of getting a hold of him to see if he still has his plans.
Ivan
Rock on.
This is going to be a bit smaller than that lol. I figure 2 12's with either vent's or passive radiators should balance out my room nicely if I can figure out how to EQ them.
I think the SMS-1 might have a built in subsonic filter in which case that would eliminate my fears of bottoming them out."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I contemplated this route for a DIY method or through SVS as it's great for tight spaces. Never followed through. Don't know enough about them. Wonder if they carry the same punch.
All I knew about sonotubes was the Bose wave cannon. I've read some stories about that single driver making some serious bass in big places. -
I contemplated this route for a DIY method or through SVS as it's great for tight spaces. Never followed through. Don't know enough about them. Wonder if they carry the same punch.
yep they can have some serious punch. My buddies will compress your eardrums. He used Pearl Harbor bombing scene to show me and and when the torpedo's hit the water it was something to feel....just so real I thought I was going to get wet. -
To keep the Sub from Bottoming you have to have the port tuned just right. Plus you will probably be using the LF out on your AVR? That usually has a subsonic filter built in on most I believe.
The laying version was a sealed box. I didn't do the one in the pic I found that pic online. But I have built one similar. Not my preference. Ported or with a passive is much better for this type of sub. The one I built had a veneer wrap on it. It looked real nice. I have seen all kinds of wraps on them, from carpet to grill cloth like DCM and the sides on SDA's and veneers.
I like grill cloth myself with wood caps top and bottom.
The standing version has the speaker at the top and the port on the bottom. This is also an online pic but it is almost identical to one I built with a buddy. That thing shook the house quite well. It was a single 12" about 50" tall with the space at the bottom. -
To keep the Sub from Bottoming you have to have the port tuned just right. Plus you will probably be using the LF out on your AVR? That usually has a subsonic filter built in on most I believe.
I will be using the LFE out on my AVR, so I will have to check that out. If nothing else I see the SMS-1 has a subsonic filter and I am thinking I will be needing one to even out my bass response between this and my fronts. It also would allow me to EQ my sub first and then run the AVR EQ which should provide a much better bass response.Ported or with a passive is much better for this type of sub. The one I built had a veneer wrap on it. It looked real nice. I have seen all kinds of wraps on them, from carpet to grill cloth like DCM and the sides on SDA's and veneers.
I like grill cloth myself with wood caps top and bottom.
Agreed. Either grill cloth or carpet (which is what I would probably do depending on what my options are).The standing version has the speaker at the top and the port on the bottom. This is also an online pic but it is almost identical to one I built with a buddy. That thing shook the house quite well. It was a single 12" about 50" tall with the space at the bottom.
I think when I get home I am going to play with WinISD some more. I am thinking if I go with a 12" x 48" tube (not including the base) with the passive I should get decent responses. I will post some graphs for feedback
My ONLY concern about using a passive is making sure I dont excede its Xmas. In looking at my first graph in WinISD right around 20hz it passes the Xmas of 13 cm of excursion for the Passive (if I remember correctly). I want to make sure I dont do that.
I also might mock up a ported version as well since ports are cheap to make and would probably save me enough I could make two at the same time.
With regards to ports, should I port the bottom or the top, or does it matter? Also what port velocity should I try to avoid so I dont get chuffing? In another thread I saw a recommendation to "Try to stay around 20m/s and under 30m/s port velocity". Is this correct?"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
never mind too big
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never mind too big
Yeah, in looking at the spec's for the one you sent its MASSIVE!
I need to try to source a slightly bigger sonotube and have some suggestions on where to look now besides Lowes, Home Depot, etc.
I am going to shoot for something with a 16" diameter or at the max 18". This will allow me to get some decent cubic footage without having to make it super tall (wanting to stay under 5 feet and realistically 4.5 feet including the base). A 16" tube might just get me there."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
So this is going to make me look stupid, but I sucked at school in math. WinISD needs the cubic feet of the enclosure to calculate things.
Am I correct in that to get the cubic feet of a cylinder the equasion you use is Lenght x Pi (3.14) x Radius Squared?
If so assuming I use a 48" long sonotube (4 ft) with a 16" diameter I am looking at 48 x 3.14 x 256 which is 38584???? WTH???? Someone help me out here.
P.S. its beer thirty (or in my case shot 30) here so I will be indulging once I get home for sure."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Your variables are wrong: You want it in feet.
48" = 4 ft
16" dia = 1.333 ft Radius = .66665 ft.
Pi =3.14
Your inside diameter may be less than 16 inches.>
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>This message has been scanned by the NSA and found to be free of harmful intent.< -
Polkersince85 wrote: »Your variables are wrong: You want it in feet.
48" = 4 ft
16" dia = 1.333 ft Radius = .66665 ft.
Pi =3.14
Your inside diameter may be less than 16 inches.
Now that makes sense.
Sometimes its just the little things that trip me up (lots of times its also the big things)
4 x 3.14 x (.666 x .666) = 5.57 if my math is correct. Thats right about what I want so time to plug it into WinISD and see what we get "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
So I spec'd out the sub with a 5.5 cubic foot box. The Vented is tuned to 20 hz with the settings in the pictures. The Passive one is tuned down to 21.5 hz with 120 grams of added weight.
I attached the SPL graph showing them both, as well as the Port velocity of the vented and the cone excursion of the passive. The Cone Excursion is what makes me scared as its WAAAAYYY above what it can be.....
Attachment not found.
Attachment not found.
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Thoughts? Liking the vented. Its cheaper and has a decently flat, then drops line a stone at 20 hz...."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Are your calculations taking into account Polyfill? That will slow the excursion some but will also add volume to the cab. I also think you may be a little large on the volume side of things. Can you recalculate at 40" tall. I believe that would take just under 1cu ft off the top and get you better excursion although you may lose a couple hz on the bottom. But then adding poly would get most of your loss back without over driving the sub. That 6cu max for the sub I believe is for a sealed enclosure. And your looking at 5.5 vented. A bit large for that sub IMHO.
The added benefit of a smaller box would be musicality. The sub will have better control for dynamic passages. Riding the limit can make a sub very one noted and slow reacting. And can add whoomp instead of thump. -
Forgot to add that to calculate poly is by weight. 1 pound of poly is about the equivalent of 1 cu ft of space.
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Are your calculations taking into account Polyfill? That will slow the excursion some but will also add volume to the cab. I also think you may be a little large on the volume side of things.
Calculations are NOT taking that into account, but will from now on
Which design are you referring to with this? Ported or Passive?I also think you may be a little large on the volume side of things. Can you recalculate at 40" tall. I believe that would take just under 1cu ft off the top and get you better excursion although you may lose a couple hz on the bottom. But then adding poly would get most of your loss back without over driving the sub.I also think you may be a little large on the volume side of things. I believe that would take just under 1cu ft off the top and get you better excursion although you may lose a couple hz on the bottom. But then adding poly would get most of your loss back without over driving the sub.
I am personally going to try and make this as short as possible as I would LOVE to keep it under 3.5 feet tall TOTAL including base (which I would ballpark at 6 inches top to bottom). I just know I cant go over 5 feet in height without hearing it from my wife. I also probably cant go with a bigger diameter than 18 inches either.
I guess one of my question is what should I be shooting for SPL wise? I know 120 is insane so I am not shooting for anything that high, I just don?t know what the baseline SPL is for most theaters. I realize you cant account for room gain in WinISD.
I havent yet found a source for the Sonotube but I am hoping they have a 16 inch diameter tube. I have been told one stock size is 18 inches. If 18 inches is what I end up with it might be worth looking into getting the 15 inch Dayton Titanic sub as I believe it perform better in that box and doenst cost a bunch more.The added benefit of a smaller box would be musicality. The sub will have better control for dynamic passages. Riding the limit can make a sub very one noted and slow reacting. And can add whoomp instead of thump.
Good to know. What would you suggest I look at cubic footage wise for the box, including space for polyfill? I would like it to be decent for both music and movies, but if you had to pick one more than the other it would be movies."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
The 40"tall design I am thinking would be ported. It would probably work with a passive but the length would have to change some.
Figure 40" tall about 4.8cu ft and a half pound of poly to cover the sides would put you at 5.2 cu and have less excursion and better control than a 5.5cu ft with the same amount of poly grossing 6cu ft.
I know people think poly is a bandaid for a box too small but I have built plenty of subs in my past to know that the most musical boxes for a 15" subs were about 20% too small with a pound of poly to compensate. -
The 40"tall design I am thinking would be ported. It would probably work with a passive but the length would have to change some.
Figure 40" tall about 4.8cu ft and a half pound of poly to cover the sides would put you at 5.2 cu and have less excursion and better control than a 5.5cu ft with the same amount of poly grossing 6cu ft.
Will do some measurements in WinISD when I get home. Leaning more toward just straight ported.I know people think poly is a bandaid for a box too small but I have built plenty of subs in my past to know that the most musical boxes for a 15" subs were about 20% too small with a pound of poly to compensate.
Gotcha. I assume the same holds true for a 12 since thats what I am looking at right now."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Didn't read the whole thread but what driver are you considering? With the right design, driver and amp 120db's is not a problem.
Is there a budget. Running 2 DIY subs myself and love them and my wallet is happy. -
Didn't read the whole thread but what driver are you considering? With the right design, driver and amp 120db's is not a problem.
Is there a budget. Running 2 DIY subs myself and love them and my wallet is happy.
Total budget is ~250-350 for just the sub and parts (not including a amp). I am currently planning on using the Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12" Reference HO. Another possible contender is the Dayton Audio TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III, but I am wanting to keep the cost as low as possible so I can possibly built 2 of them (one for each corner).
I was hoping to run this off a section on the Sunfire Signature amp I will be aquire around the same time as this build, but the more I look around the more I find I need suggestions for a plate or pro amp (so I can adjust the gain). If its a plate amp I do not plan to flush mount it in the sonotube, but rather just put it in an external box and run speaker wire to the sub from it.
I also am looking at possibly incorporating a SMS-1 into the mix depending on if I can source one for cheap enough as my AVR doesnt EQ the sub. Alternatively I might just upgrade to a Audyseey XT capable AVR to handle it (like the Onkyo 709)"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
For $200 this is a nice start into a pro amp. It'll power your Dayton subs nicely. Also for $350 you can get the Behringer EP4000. That should handle both Dayton projects plus any other future projects if you choose to upgrade subs.
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=emporium&action=display&thread=22438 -
For $200 this is a nice start into a pro amp. It'll power your Dayton subs nicely. Also for $350 you can get the Behringer EP4000. That should handle both Dayton projects plus any other future projects if you choose to upgrade subs.
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=emporium&action=display&thread=22438
Now those are good to know about. They fit my needs perfectly! Just what I am looking for.
So I graphed out a 4 cubic foot box tuned to 20 hz with 750 watts @ 4 ohm. LOVE the SPL and port velocity graphs...... HATE the cone excursion since its going over lots. Any suggestions?
Increasing the box size doesnt seem to affect it, nor does anything with port size, and I dont want to tune it higher since I want a decently flat response.
Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
The SMS-1 and playing around with the subs placement will help smooth it out.
You should also create a thread on AVS in the DIY room. There's plenty of info. -
The SMS-1 and playing around with the subs placement will help smooth it out.
You should also create a thread on AVS in the DIY room. There's plenty of info.
The response yes, but the cone excursion wont get fixed with room placement. How do I get that so its not going to over drive the sub?"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
So in looking at this, I realize I am a dummy. I keep looking at wattage and not realizing the increase in wattage needed to gain an additional 3db. Scaling back the wattage from 750 to 500 to 400, etc didnt really drop the SPL all that much. So in looking at things from that perspective I think I just need 300 watts. Here is why:
300 watts keeps me under the max cone excursion until under 22 hz (which I wont be going past anyway). I still get around 110 db flat all the way across the board. I think that's a pretty good win for me with just using a 4 cubic foot box. I can drop it to 3, but I start to drop off quicker after 30 hz which I would prefer not to in this case.
Port air velocity peaks at 23 m/s peak at 22 hz (which is right around where I exceed max cone excursion) which is below tuning anyway and then drops back down like a rock.
So in looking at amps that can provide ~ 300 watts I come across 3. Of them I like the Behringer better since its 2 channel so I could add my other sub later with no additional amp cost, however it costs right about the price of 2 of the plate amps.....
Option 1: Bash 300W Digital Subwoofer Amplifier
Option 2: Yung SD300-6 300W Class D Subwoofer Amp Module with 6 dB @ 30 Hz
Option 3: Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier 2 x 300W
P.S. anyone heard of Yung? I sure havent...."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I have heard the Bash and it sounded good. Pretty stout for a digital sub amp. Not a big fan of Behringer Amps but for a Sub they should work fine. I would also look at the QSC RMX series for better power at about the same price. Never heard of the Yung amp.
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I have heard the Bash and it sounded good. Pretty stout for a digital sub amp. Not a big fan of Behringer Amps but for a Sub they should work fine. I would also look at the QSC RMX series for better power at about the same price. Never heard of the Yung amp.
I will take a look at the QSC's as well.
Next question which is kinda arbitrary.... the 110 db's I am getting in WinISD, how does that transfer over to actual listening lol.
Is 110 db at 1m ground plane, how much square footage does it cover, etc..."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
