Linn / Icepower power amp

SlowcarIX · March 2008

what is the difference between the linn klimax amp vs. the b&o icepowered amps?

http://www.linn.co.uk/music_systems_klimax_500_solo

Gaara · March 2008

I thought the Klimax was a class A/B with a SMPS (Class H?), while icepower was class D. You can't really directly compare a single amp to a technology, as icepower comes in all sorts of flavors. The 1000asp would be comparable, but then different brands do their own thing giving different sonics even though it is the same amp at heart.

bknauss · March 2008

Icepower amps have gotten rave reviews, even from traditional tube guys who love those dynamics. Class D doesn't mean flat sound... its just easier to have flat sound because its a much more complicated beast than a tube or solid state AB amp.

venomclan · March 2008

A disadvantage of Class D from a lot of sources I spoke to, is that they have a lot of trouble with resistance sweeps. If you have speakers that dip a lot in the ohms area, it can be a problem.
Venom

SlowcarIX · March 2008

Do the LSi15/LSiC dip very low?

unc2701 · March 2008

B&O Icepower amps are Class D, done right. That Linn is a class AB with a power supply along the lines of a class G.

Systems · March 2008

unc2701 wrote: »

B&O Icepower amps are Class D, done right.

Yep, them and Hypex UCD,s are the best examples of the breed.

That Linn is a class AB with a power supply along the lines of a class G.

Or maybe a full PWM switching supply?

Face · March 2008

SlowcarIX wrote: »

Do the LSi15/LSiC dip very low?

They're 4 ohm speakers to begin with. I believe the 15 may dip down to 2 ohms.

Sherardp · March 2008

gotta love the icepower, the D-Sonic stuff es muy fantastico

SlowcarIX · March 2008

Sherardp wrote: »

gotta love the icepower, the D-Sonic stuff es muy fantastico

i just got a lsic saturday and was looking for a mono amp to drive them...decided to go with d-sonic m250m from dennis after looking around a bit. ships this thurdays, cant wait to see what it sounds like

unc2701 · March 2008

Funny- I just got a 500asp module for my LSiC. The wife banned the front L&R speakers from the den, so I'd been running my LSiC on one channel of the bryston 9b- TOTAL overkill. So when I saw an Icepower 500asp up on Audiogon, I snagged it. Right now it's kinda ghetto-wired, but still sounds great. Had it up & running in about 10 minutes. At some point I'll do a real review.

Gaara · March 2008

You bought just a module? What did you have to do just add connectors, power and a case?

SolidSqual · March 2008

I love my Bel Canto S300s on my Emmys! But, I will tell you that I ran a PS Audio Trio A100 with Acoustic Zen Adagio speakers and received less than stellar results. The A100 on Lsi15s was breathtaking. If I remember correctly, I described it as the first time I ever heard liquid audio.

unc2701 · March 2008

Gaara wrote: »

You bought just a module? What did you have to do just add connectors, power and a case?

Yep, but I haven't gotten to the case yet

And by power, I mean I had to add an IEC connector. I might mod it at some point, but I'm pretty happy as it stands. I'll try to get pics up at some point.

venomclan · March 2008

SolidSqual wrote: »

I love my Bel Canto S300s on my Emmys! But, I will tell you that I ran a PS Audio Trio A100 with Acoustic Zen Adagio speakers and received less than stellar results. The A100 on Lsi15s was breathtaking. If I remember correctly, I described it as the first time I ever heard liquid audio.

That is weird as the LSI15's should pose a more difficult ohm sweep than the ADA's. Ice does not do well with those dips. My buddy has a truck subwoofer that sounded great with the Trio A100 I lent him. Maybe your Trio was bad...

SolidSqual · March 2008

No the trio wasn't bad. Didn't I sell that thing to you? I think the synergy was just off. In terms of ohm sweeps, I never felt the Trio was underpowered and I drove it fairly hard now and again.

At any rate, my new speakers have a 100 db efficiency so ohm sweeps or no ohm sweeps is really not a problem. My current setup is very dynamic. I think like any system, you need to strive for synergy. Some gear is just not going to work well with other gear whether for more technical reasons or sonic signatures.

venomclan · March 2008

SolidSqual wrote: »

No the trio wasn't bad. Didn't I sell that thing to you? I think the synergy was just off. In terms of ohm sweeps, I never felt the Trio was underpowered and I drove it fairly hard now and again.

Yes, but I paid you with a Nigerian check.

Systems · March 2008

unc2701 wrote: »

Funny- I just got a 500asp module for my LSiC. .... So when I saw an Icepower 500asp up on Audiogon, I snagged it.

Nice snag the modules themselves are usually hard to find.I had the good fortune of getting an asp25O for subwoofer duty.

Right now it's kinda ghetto-wired, but still sounds great. Had it up & running in about 10 minutes. At some point I'll do a real review.

Yep simple as it gets to hook up as long as you have the multi pin molex connector for the inputs,I didn't.If you are not using a balanced connection I would recommend shorting the inverted input pin to ground.

unc2701 · March 2008

Yeah, they are hard to come by. There were some 1000asp's on A-gon not too long ago for a pretty good price... hate that I missed those.

The one I got came w/ the molex connectors attached to test leads (except for the power cord & an XLR input) Made it easier to get things going. Already shorted the -V... just took some 12awg house wiring, bent it into a U and plugged that in the XLR. Did the trick

Once I find some speakers that the wife approves of, I'll go back to the bryston & probably put this guy on a subwoofer.

venomclan · March 2008

unc2701 wrote: »

Once I find some speakers that the wife approves of, I'll go back to the bryston & probably put this guy on a subwoofer.

Are you talking about the Gallos?

unc2701 · March 2008

Nah, the Gallos are in the man room- I can do whatever I want in there.

This is for the den... The LSi9's looked nice enough, but the cat kept on jumping on top of them and almost knocking them off the stands, plus where I had to place them didn't work too well for the 9's.

venomclan · March 2008

Whew, I am never coming out of my man room.

Systems · March 2008

Zero wrote: »

They will never be capable of extracting what the topology is capable of because they are already way too handicapped by weak power supplies, humiliatingly low capacitance, and cheap parts (specifically the B&O ASP modules).

Switching supplies don't require the typical large storage capacitances used in a regular linear supply.However I think Hypex's choice of using a large linear supply does allow its Class D modules to perform at their optimum, while maintaining their 90% eficiency( the penalties being increased size,weight and cost vs a switching supply like B&O use.)I have a pair of Hypex UCD 180's and one ICE asp250 serving as subwoofer amps which they do admirably.In direct comparison to my Bryston amps driving my main speakers the UCD's even with a big linear supply,lack the refinement of the class A/B design.

SlowcarIX · March 2008

Zero wrote: »

Tiny class D power amps can be capable of performance that extends well beyond what one would expect from such a fly weight chassis. Whiz-bang audiophile tricks are their specialty; swooning virgin ears with detail, perceived transparency, and control.

Yet at the end of the day, you can't skimp on the basics; which most of these products do. They will never be capable of extracting what the topology is capable of because they are already way too handicapped by weak power supplies, humiliatingly low capacitance, and cheap parts (specifically the B&O ASP modules).

If you want to play with the big dogs of the game; you've gotta give the circuit what it needs to strut its stuff. As it stands now, with now being today, the greatest notoriety of class D amps is the startling good bang/buck and form/function roles. It's just a shame to see nearly an entire genre of product being herded in this general direction. Thankfully though, among the Bel Canto's, PS Audio's, Rotel's, et all - reside a few shinning gems that reflect what class D can do when done right.

even jeff rowland is using these b&o icepower modules...maybe they deserve more credit that you give them?

http://www.jeffrowland.com/M501.htm

Gaara · March 2008

Zero likes Icepower just fine, he just doesn't seem to like the smps power supplies the asp modules use. He owns a H20 amp which uses icepower with a massively overbuilt power supply. His own review of the unit can be found here on AffordableAudio.

I respect Sean's opinion a lot, I purchased my speakers (Rothschildes) and amp (SM-70) for my PC rig based on his recommendations. I do however really enjoy the icepower amps using the asp modules, my current main amps using modded 1000asp modules. If that makes me a virgin audiophile so be it.

Gaara · March 2008

Zero wrote: »

GV27,
Gaara,

Ok, so you're not a virgin. You just haven't had a great class-D experience yet! . In all seriousness, a lot of my discontent with the B&O ASP series has less to do with the modules sound quality, and more to do with the ridiculous pricing some companies come up with that use said modules.

Completely agree. I don't see how Bel Canto can charge $2000/pr of their M300s, when Red Dragon sold their Amp-1s (same module) for $500/pr. You can get Murano monos for $600/pr, I doubt there is much of a difference in sound quality between the 3. Nothing against Bel Canto, most of the larger mfgs seem to price like this.

One of these days I would like to try some icepower using the asc modules with a big beefy power supply. Not anytime soon though, prices are a little out of my budget.

Systems · March 2008

Zero wrote: »

GV27,

You're absolutely correct. Efficient class D and op-amp based amplifiers do not necessarily require big linear power supplies to deliver the goods.

Just to clarify what I meant in my original post. Switched mode supplies such as the integral ones used on the B&O 250asp and 200asc do not require large filter capacitors because they operate at high frequencies, were as a linear supply is operating at 60hz(120hz ripple) so filter capacitance requirements are greater.I don't understand Audio Sectors reasoning for using such relatively small filter caps on their LM3785 amps.With linear supplies bigger is better.

Gaara · April 2008

GV#27 wrote: »

I don't understand Audio Sectors reasoning for using such relatively small filter caps on their LM3785 amps.With linear supplies bigger is better.

I always thought that was the point of gainclones, to have as few parts as possible for cost/sound quality, less is more thought process.

Systems · April 2008

Gaara wrote: »

I always thought that was the point of gainclones, to have as few parts as possible for cost/sound quality, less is more thought process.

Audiosector use relatively small filter caps on their commercial LM3875 units. However the use of bigger filter caps,while maybe adding a few dollars to the cost and taking a bit more room,they would not add to the complexity of the design but would boost performance.
Im not saying they sound bad ,just that they could improve even further by beefing up the supply.Im currently using a pair of Audiosector LM3875 kits (with big filter caps)to power my Vifa 2 way PC speakers.IMO they sound very good.

Linn / Icepower power amp

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