a little help with sub set up

comet
comet Posts: 31
i have a marantz av9000 a rotel rb-1080 to power my fornt linn keilidh speaker that are bi-wired and a hsu vtf-2 sub that is hooked up to the marantz sub out jack. i have set the front speaker to small but then it seem that i dont get enough bass the crossover set to 70 or higher and the bass sound like sh$t. one more thing the sub wont trun on til the vol is to about 30. any help please. thanks
Post edited by comet on

Comments

  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2003
    yes.. does your VTF2 have a always on setting? keep it turned on instead of standby mode. it wont hurt the amp. then i'd suggest you move the sub to a corner of the room. where is your sub located right now? You may not think moving the sub to a corner will help. but it sure did in my case. it added about a 10 to 15% increase in sub volume when I did.

    once you try these two things... we can go from there and see what other tweaks might help you.

    good luck, Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    no always on and it is about 2 feet from the corner
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2003
    ok. is the amp turned to about 12 o'clock to about 1 o'clock? then i'd suggest a sound level meter ... about $40 from Radio Shack. and set the levels on all speakers. you could be amazed at how far off the levels are on each speaker.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    ok here we go


    lf +3 cen -4 rf +3

    lr+1 sw -10 rr+1
    and the crossover on the sub set to 90
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2003
    did you use a SPL meter to set up your speakers? The sub at -10 seems pretty low to me. mine is usually set to -5 to -8 depending on the audio source.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    yes that what it came out to be
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2003
    great comet. glad to help and I bet it sounds much better now.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    thanks and yes but still turns on at a high level for the sub:(
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    what about bass and treb sould the be set to 0 or be adjusted?
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2003
    bass and treble should be set to center or half or 0 depending on your particular receiver. some slight adjustment is necessary depending on your speakers, and your tastes. I run my treb about 1 o'clock and bass at 12 o'clock.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    what do u think of this sound levels for the the set


    lf+6 c 0 rf+6

    lr+2 sw 0 rr +2

    the the sub truns on at not such a high vol
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Why are you adjusting the filter at your sub when you are already filtering at the Marantz?

    What is the filter point on the Marantz when your speakers are set to small?

    Your VTF-2 filter ("Crossover") setting should be set to "Out", which disables the filter at the sub.

    That is probably why you were getting crappy bass response when the speaks were set to small - you were cascading the filters from the Marantz and the VTF-2 and causing a large depression in the FR at that point.

    If you are not running true full range speakers all around, then I strongly suggest setting them all to small, filtering at the Marantz, and bypassing the filter in the VTF-2 (set it to "Out").

    I would not run your sub pre-out level in the Marantz any higher than -3, even if it makes your sub "sleepy" with respect to the auto-on circuit. The sub/LFE pre-out is often susceptible to voltage distortion if run at 0 or higher. Always adjust the sub volume at the sub, not at the AVR. Leave the AVR sub setting a bit in the negative range.

    To solve this problem either leave the amp on full time, or use a Y-splitter on the sub pre-out and run a cable to both the L/R inputs (still with the filter disabled on "out"). The Y splitter doubles the strength of the input voltage and the sub should "wake-up" much easier. Make sure to recalibrate, since adding a Y splitter increases the sub volume 3 dB.

    Make sure both your ports are unplugged and your Bass Extension Switch is set to "32 Hz - 2 Ports Open".

    Make sure your Polarity is set to 0 if the sub is near the front stage (unless 180 clearly provides better results).

    Sub FR can be greatly affected by placement. After resetting as described above, experiment with a few different locations. If you have a CD burner, you might want to consider burning a set of bass test tones and using your SPL meter to actually conduct an FR sweep at several locations in the room and see how the sub interacts with the room. A corner or at the 1/3 midpoint along the front wall usually yields the best results.

    First try everything described above, except the FR sweep. The VTF-2 is a great sub and should sound spectacular in your room if properly set-up and placed in the right spot.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    doing that brought the sw set on the reciever down to -14

    if i set the sub vol to the 9 oclock it brings it to -7
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Clearly you didn't read my post carefully. I TOLD you not to adjust the sub volume at the receiver.

    Before you start the following exercise, make sure the sub settings are Polarity: 0, Bass Extension: 32 Hz 2 Ports Open, Crossover: Out.

    Make sure you don't have any ports plugged on the sub.

    Decide up front on the Y splitter and either use one or don't. I recommend using one if your sub is "sleepy" with the Auto On circuit.

    Listen and read the following carefully Comet - I'm going to do this just once:

    1) Set up your SPL meter at the listening position on C-weighted slow, facing forward, pointed 45 degrees up, on a tripod or a box at head level when seated.

    2) On the Marantz, set all your speakers to small, your sub to on/yes, and your filter point to 80 Hz (if it is adjustable on the Marantz).

    3) On the Marantz, set all your speaker levels to 0 and your sub level to -3. DO NOT alter the sub setting again.

    4) Start the test tones on the Marantz and set them to Manual (not Auto).

    5) Go to the center channel test tone and adjust the Master Volume until the meter reads 75 dB. Leave the center channel setting at 0.

    6) DO NOT touch the Master Volume again for the remainder of this exercise and write its setting down somewhere.

    7) Run through the test tones for the rest of your surround speakers and adjust the individual levels (NOT the Master Volume) up or down until all the other speakers read 75 dB on the meter.

    8) Run the test tone for the subwoofer. Adjust the volume of the subwoofer AT THE SUBWOOFER PLATE AMP until it reads, on average, about 75-76 dB (it will fluctuate some) on the meter.

    Your system will then be properly set-up and calibrated for HT. If the bass isn't to your liking, experiment with placement.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    i did read it but misunderstood so please dont yell at me im new to doing calibation settings im trying to learn. all the speakers are set to small and the crossover for the reicver is not adjustable:(

    did the adjustment and now it sound much better thanks for your time and wisdom:)


    they end up as

    lf+7 cen 0 rf+7
    lr+5 sw-3 rr+5

    and agian thanks for your time:)

    comet
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    I am glad the system sounds much better now.

    Question: Why is your center channel so much more efficient than your mains and surrounds?

    Question: Was the Crossover Setting on the HSU originally set to "In" before I told you to set it to "Out"? I suspect it was since you were reporting an effect on the sound when you adjusted the filter control at the sub. If it was set to "In" that is the primary reason you had crappy sound. You were double filtering the signal and you had a large depression in the FR at the filter point. Let me guess - it probably had decent lows, but the mid bass was totally lacking punch, right?

    Sorry I came across as harsh. Sometimes you spend 20+ minutes on a post trying to help someone and they breeze through it in 15 seconds and post an answer that suggests they didn't take the time to read it carefully. That can be frustrating sometimes. I didn't mean to take it out on you.

    The particulars of subwoofer set-up CAN be difficult to understand and it's very easy to unknowingly fall into one of several traps and have much worse sound than you should.

    While you're at it, please go through both the Marantz and your DVD player and make sure there are no dynamic range limiter or dynamic range compression circuits engaged. This can also be known as Dolby Digital Midnight Mode or Dolby Digital Dynamic Compression.

    Also make sure if the Marantz has an LFE "trim" control, that it is either bypassed completely, or is otherwise set to its highest level. This control (if it exists in your Marantz) is also known as the LFE attenuation control, or the LFE dynamic limiter, or the LFE sub protection control. You don't want it (nor do you need it) engaged with the HSU.

    Edit:

    If you did discover that you have an LFE control circuit (not to be confused with the sub volume setting on your test tones), and it was engaged or running at a reduced level, you may need to recalibrate your sub level again. No big deal if you wrote down the Master Volume setting. Leave the sub level at -3 and just readjust again at the sub plate amp if needed.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    b&w for center and my linn keilidh for my fronts

    the reciever has just a bass peak level
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by comet
    the reciever has just a bass peak level

    That's the goblin. Disable or bypass that circuit if it is engaged.

    Was your Sub Crossover set to "In" before we started this? I'm keeping an informal track of how often double filtering occurs and I'd really like to know in your case. I'd also like to know if my assessment of the sound of your sub being double filtered was accurate (good lows, but no midrange bass).

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
    This is a very interesting statistic to compile Doc. I'll bet most would say the bass go louder... what do you think?

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by HBombToo
    This is a very interesting statistic to compile Doc. I'll bet most would say the bass go louder... what do you think?

    HBomb

    Hi Henry: Clearly, double filtering at the same frequency (e.g, 80 at the AVR, 80 at the sub, etc.) will reduce the SPL significantly at that point.

    I've actually tried it myself (very easy on the SVS, which has the same style filter bypass switch as the HSU).

    My AVR filters at 80, and engaging the SVS filter and also setting it to 80 created an 10+ dB depression in the FR between 65 and 85 Hz. Lows were unaffected but it sounded like hell in the mid-bass range - almost hollow.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by Dr. Spec
    Clearly you didn't read my post carefully. I TOLD you not to adjust the sub volume at the receiver.

    Before you start the following exercise, make sure the sub settings are Polarity: 0, Bass Extension: 32 Hz 2 Ports Open, Crossover: Out.

    Make sure you don't have any ports plugged on the sub.

    Decide up front on the Y splitter and either use one or don't. I recommend using one if your sub is "sleepy" with the Auto On circuit.

    Listen and read the following carefully Comet - I'm going to do this just once:

    1) Set up your SPL meter at the listening position on C-weighted slow, facing forward, pointed 45 degrees up, on a tripod or a box at head level when seated.

    2) On the Marantz, set all your speakers to small, your sub to on/yes, and your filter point to 80 Hz (if it is adjustable on the Marantz).

    3) On the Marantz, set all your speaker levels to 0 and your sub level to -3. DO NOT alter the sub setting again.

    4) Start the test tones on the Marantz and set them to Manual (not Auto).

    5) Go to the center channel test tone and adjust the Master Volume until the meter reads 75 dB. Leave the center channel setting at 0.

    6) DO NOT touch the Master Volume again for the remainder of this exercise and write its setting down somewhere.

    7) Run through the test tones for the rest of your surround speakers and adjust the individual levels (NOT the Master Volume) up or down until all the other speakers read 75 dB on the meter.

    8) Run the test tone for the subwoofer. Adjust the volume of the subwoofer AT THE SUBWOOFER PLATE AMP until it reads, on average, about 75-76 dB (it will fluctuate some) on the meter.

    Your system will then be properly set-up and calibrated for HT. If the bass isn't to your liking, experiment with placement.

    Dr. good job of explaining the proper way to calibrate your home theater. while for some of us it's almost second nature.. and we find such tasks very simple. other people on here are very new to home theater and find it difficult sometimes to understand the lingo. You did a good job of going step by step and walking us through it and now all of us can benefit from your patience and knowledge.

    thanks, Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Thanks for the props, Al. Sometimes walking somebody through it step by step is the only way to go because they might otherwise make erroneous assumptions about set-up.

    I'm still waiting for Comet to get back to me on the other question.

    Ed
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    their is no off or on for the bass peal leave lt starts at -75 and goes to +15
    yes it was set to in
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by comet
    their is no off or on for the bass peal leave lt starts at -75 and goes to +15
    yes it was set to in

    Check your owner's manual to be sure, but in that case leave it at +15, I believe. The highest setting means there will be no compression of bass peaks.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    no off or on for the bass peak level. one ? im i going to have readjust anything because of this if i set it to +15
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    I don't think so - this is just a peak compression limiter and probably does not affect the sub level calibration setting.

    What does the owner's manual say about the default factory setting?

    If it was set at anything less than the max, you are in for a treat with much more bass power and impact.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    when i got it it was set at +15 brand new
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by comet
    when i got it it was set at +15 brand new

    Then I would definitely leave it at +15. If you want to see the impact this little gremlin can have, drop it down to -20 and spin a bass-heavy DVD. Ughh.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emu[email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • comet
    comet Posts: 31
    edited March 2003
    doc 1 more ? bass and treble set flat or adjusted listen to a lot of music when the girlfriend is not home
  • BeginnersLuck
    BeginnersLuck Posts: 213
    edited March 2003
    I sould set if flat for the most natural response, however, if you like you bass or treble kicked up a notch, go for it. Your bass and treble settings only affect analog signals so your movies will still play as calibrated.

    -BL
    TWFTPQ
    Receiver: Outlaw 1050
    Amps: Outlaw M-200 x 3 (Powering Mains and Center)
    Mains: RT800i; Center: CS400i; Surrounds: F/X500i
    Sub1: 214L Vented Tempest
    Sub2: 122L Sealed Tempest