Next upgrade: CD player or preamp?

tcrossma · December 2007

Ok, well pretty soon i'm going to be ready for my next upgrade. I've recently bought the LSi15's, an amp, and a new DVD player. I am extremely happy with the way things are progressing.

Improving music (CD) quality is next on my radar. I'm trying to figure out if i'll get the biggest improvement from a dedicated CD player or 2-channel preamp?

By many accounts my current AVR (Yamaha RX-V2500) has a good pre section, but I certainly don't have the experience to know.

So... what are peoples thoughts? Will a CD player or preamp make the biggest improvement for me for CD playback? I'll probably be looking to spend <> $750 used.

By the way, when I first joined this forum I thought you were all crazy for the amount of gear you have and upgrading you do... and now i'm afraid i'm caught up in it as well!

haimoc · December 2007

Both are important, but if I have to choose which one to buy first, it would be a good preamp.

danger boy · December 2007

i think you'll get the biggest improvement from the pre amp.. since all other sources will also be improved by it as well.. not just the CD. On the other hand, as they say... it all starts with the source... so the answer is both.. you need to upgrade both.

tcrossma · December 2007

danger boy wrote: »

i think you'll get the biggest improvement from the pre amp.. since all other sources will also be improved by it as well.. not just the CD. On the other hand, as they say... it all starts with the source... so the answer is both.. you need to upgrade both.

If I get a new pre it'll be a dedicated 2-channel pre with an HT bypass so that ONLY the CD player is hooked up to it. If I get the pre before a CD player i'll hook up the analog out's of my DVD to it.

I do plan on buying both eventually, but trying to decide which to buy first. I just don't know if i'm being limited primarily by my AVR's pre section or my DVD player the most. Maybe they are both equally limiting and I might not get any improvement until both are upgraded... that would suck

I suppose the next question would be, how high-end of a pre and CD do I need to go in order to get a good improvement over what I have now? I had been thinking of something like the Adcom GFP-750 pre, and maybe an Arcam or Jolida CD player. Would those two work together or do I need to get a better pre?

Thanks for the input guys.

steveinaz · December 2007

The 3910 is pretty respectable, I'd go with the pre option.

Early B. · December 2007

Here's another option -- sell everything and start all over with an HT pre, a better amp, and an inexpensive HD-DVD player. The net cost will be about the same. If you do this, you'll proabbly have better SQ for music and movies. Then your next upgrade could be a tube CDP.

tcrossma · December 2007

Early B. wrote: »

Here's another option -- sell everything and start all over with an HT pre, a better amp, and an inexpensive HD-DVD player. The net cost will be about the same. If you do this, you'll proabbly have better SQ for music and movies. Then your next upgrade could be a tube CDP.

I think the LSI 15's, the B&K 200.5 (200w @ 8ohm), and the Denon 3910 are pretty good pieces -- i'm not sure why i'd want to sell them and start over when I just selected them.

My AVR is very likely a bottleneck for music, but it's pre section is supposed to be pretty good for HT -- and i'm not at all unhappy with HT performance right now.

As to HD-DVD, not interested. I love HD for television, but I am quite happy with the quality of standard def TV's on my 42" tv. If I had 60"+, I might agree.

What I want to do is add a 2-channel pre that has an HT bypass so that I can play a CD without going through my pre/pro. I like my amp and think it's got a nice warm sound to it, and it has plenty of power to push the LSi's.

I just want to know if people think a good CD player or 2-channel pre would be the most beneficial upgrade for music. I'll probably get both at some point, but one has to come before the other.

"Start over" is not a particularly helpful response.

Early B. · December 2007

OK, here's a better response -- flip a coin.

It doesn't matter which one you buy first because the sound quality is not likely to change dramatically with either option. If you buy a CDP, you'll be running it through the Yamaha (not good). If you buy a 2-channel pre, you'll be running it with the 3910 (not good). Nevertheless, with either option you're still using the same amp. B&K is O.K., but for better 2-channel playback, there are other options out there to consider. So my suggestion was to eliminate all three "weak links" (receiver, amp, and DVDP) without expanding your budget.

The reason I mentioned an HD-DVD player was not so much for HD, but for potentially better 2-channel playback than your 3910 can offer.

haimoc · December 2007

Early B. wrote: »

OK, here's a better response -- flip a coin.

It doesn't matter which one you buy first because the sound quality is not likely to change dramatically with either option. If you buy a CDP, you'll be running it through the Yamaha (not good). If you buy a 2-channel pre, you'll be running it with the 3910 (not good). Nevertheless, with either option you're still using the same amp. B&K is O.K., but for better 2-channel playback, there are other options out there to consider. So my suggestion was to eliminate all three "weak links" (receiver, amp, and DVDP) without expanding your budget.

The reason I mentioned an HD-DVD player was not so much for HD, but for potentially better 2-channel playback than your 3910 can offer.

I think Denon 3910 is very good when used as a CD player (turning off all the video/digital circuit). I am not sure if a HD-DVD player can do better (CD playback) than the 3910.

MSALLA · December 2007

Why only a 2-channel pre? Why not sell the Rx-v2500 and get a good 5.1 pre/pro? Unless you are going to have two totally independent systems, I don't see the point.

tcrossma · December 2007

MSALLA wrote: »

Why only a 2-channel pre? Why not sell the Rx-v2500 and get a good 5.1 pre/pro? Unless you are going to have two totally independent systems, I don't see the point.

I think my reasoning here is that I can get a good 2-channel pre to handle my 2-channel music and completely bypass my pre/pro or AVR when listening to music.

I suppose I could upgrade to a dedicated pre/pro that is also good for music, but then i'd be tied to that for future upgrades. If I separate the 2-channel from the HT I can swap either as necessary, and also to put emphasis on one or the other. Right now my emphasis is on improving music as I am happy with what my receiver is doing for HT.

Early, thanks for clarifying with the "flip a coin". That's the type of opinion I was looking for. I was concerned that I'd have to upgrade both my pre and CD in order to get an improvement. I think my amp is up to the task, however, as from all the recommendations I've heard people make on this forum I think my new amp is equal to or better than many of those mentioned on a regular basis. But one thing i've picked up around here is that everyone has their own opinions and preferences on amps.

I might try getting a good tube CD player and see how it goes. If it doesn't improve things I'll just keep it until I get a new pre. I suppose it's possible that the pre stage in my AVR might actually be good enough for me to get an improvement out of a new CD player, one never knows until one tries.

I've already received such a tremendous improvement in quality from my new LSi's, amp, and Denon 3910. Everything sounds so much more "real" now than I've ever had before. But, because of all the bad influences around here i'm still not happy and looking for more!

Thanks for the input everyone.

Ricardo · December 2007

I think a 2 channel preamp with HT bypass should be your next upgrade; Lots of good options at that price. Search Audiogon.com

Ricardo · December 2007

Here's a great option if you can stretch a little bit.

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?preatube&1203007120

Edit. Sorry, that one does not have a HT bypass....

This one does:

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?preatran&1202364435

If you look frequently you will find many options.

Early B. · December 2007

The bottom line is knowing exactly what you want to do. A few months ago I would have said that if you're serious about improving 2-channel playback, then you'll need a CDP and a 2-channel pre. Now, I think you can get where you want to go by upgrading your HT separates and getting a CDP.

I think the technology is moving so rapidly that it's tough to justify the cost for 2-channel separates, unless, of course, you have loads of cash like Ricardo

. For instance, the sound quality of a $350 Emotiva HT pre is astonishingly good for the price. My initial plan was to "upgrade" by eventually purchasing a 2-channel pre, but once I heard the LMC-1 in 2-channel mode, I don't think another pre is worth the expense. So I'm gonna sit still for a while.

Shizelbs · December 2007

I'd lean towards getting a preamp

madmax · December 2007

I have to go 100% pre. The pre really puts the character into the rest of the system, even the old CD player. Of course remember I'm a 2 channel guy only, not into HT at all other than playing through the 2 ch rig.
madmax

tcrossma · December 2007

Early B. wrote: »

The bottom line is knowing exactly what you want to do. A few months ago I would have said that if you're serious about improving 2-channel playback, then you'll need a CDP and a 2-channel pre. Now, I think you can get where you want to go by upgrading your HT separates and getting a CDP.

I think the technology is moving so rapidly that it's tough to justify the cost for 2-channel separates, unless, of course, you have loads of cash like Ricardo . For instance, the sound quality of a $350 Emotiva HT pre is astonishingly good for the price. My initial plan was to "upgrade" by eventually purchasing a 2-channel pre, but once I heard the LMC-1 in 2-channel mode, I don't think another pre is worth the expense. So I'm gonna sit still for a while.

By the same token, now that you've seen that a $350 pre/pro is "astonishigly good" isn't it then possible that the pre section in some modern AVR's might be decent?

But ok, sounds like the consensus is on a pre. Ricardo, thanks for the link to the PS Audio PCA-2. Now that we've ascertained that a pre upgrade is needed, anyone else have any other suggestions for a 2-channel pre in the $750-$950 range used?

madmax · December 2007

There are tons of them out there. At one time the Dodd preamp was a good cheap option to get you rolling and they also had an upgraded one. On the high end Manley makes one that sells new for $1800 which you can often find for $900 or 1K used. Literally tons of preamps on audiogon.
madmax

danger boy · December 2007

tcrossma wrote: »

By the same token, now that you've seen that a $350 pre/pro is "astonishigly good" isn't it then possible that the pre section in some modern AVR's might be decent?

yes, but I think you'd have to spend a pretty penny to get the same high quality out of a AVR's pre amp to match a separate pre amp.

Say something like a Pioneer Elite, or Sony ES would probably have a pretty decent pre amp in their AVR's.

cfrizz · December 2007

Yup go for the pre first.

halo · December 2007

#1 - Be patient.

If I were you I'd go for a VTL TL2.5.

Tube pre w/ an HT bypass. Used w/ or w/o phono should be in your stated budget.

Good luck!

tcrossma · December 2007

Ok, a pre it is. I know there's a lot out there, and i've been keeping my ears open to different brands/models for a while now. But even so there's an overwhelming amount of choices.

Originally I had been thinking of an Adcom GFP-750. Anyone with personal experience on this pre think it would be good enough? It's maybe too "old" of a model? They can be had in the $600-650 range used pretty easily, but should I be looking at something better (and thus more expensive)?

I don't have *any* experience with pre-amps so it's just hard to know how high up the food chain I realistically need to go.

tcrossma · December 2007

halo wrote: »

#1 - Be patient.

If I were you I'd go for a VTL TL2.5.

Tube pre w/ an HT bypass. Used w/ or w/o phono should be in your stated budget.

Good luck!

Thanks, i'll take a look. I don't think i'm interested in a TT at this point, but who knows, like I said you guys seem to be having a bad influence on me!

Being that i've never had any experience in tube gear before, to be honest i'm a little bit hesitant towards it. It seems like a lot of maintenance, replacing and swapping tubes and whatnot. Is that just being moronic on my part or is tube gear another layer of maintenance that I don't want to get into?

cfrizz · December 2007

I personally see it as a way for these guys to feed their tweeking habits. All tubes do is manipulate the sound that they hear to something that they like better.

Getting a TT & records is also as far as I'm concerned another labor intensive endeavor that I have no interest in getting into again.

But if that's what you want have at it.

Sherardp · December 2007

Go for the pre, then go for a Shanling. As soon as I get in the new dedicated room, Im going for one myself.

Next upgrade: CD player or preamp?

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