Denon true load rating

polkatese
polkatese Posts: 6,767
edited March 2003 in Electronics
Guys,
I hooked up a LSi9 to my ol' trusty DPL AVC-3030 receiver today, and had done some listening test. There are couple things that I need to get your feedback.
1. Denon's manual stated that on 2ch operation, A and B, impedance should be 6-16 ohms, and on A+B it should be 12-16 ohms. I have connected LSi9 on A and RM3000 on B, with the intention that I will not be spending any significant time listening to A+B (mainly A). Is this ok?
2. Denon claimed that their receivers will handle 4 ohms load with ease, but REALLY, what do you guys, Denon owners, think about Denon receiver driving a 4 ohms load?
3. Based on a couple hours listening to the pair, I have to say that high is very bright, borderline harsh, even on direct cd mode. Is this normal and will change? I used to have the 2802 and found that receiver to be warmer than the 3030, but I am really making an apple and orange comparison, since I tested 2802 to drive the 15, and now I am pushing the 3030 to drive the 9.
3030 is rated at Front 110 w x 2, Center (matrix) at 110 w, and surround at 35 w x 2. I do not use the center nor the surround in this current setup. Any comments is greatly appreciated. Thanks..
I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
Post edited by polkatese on

Comments

  • jcaut
    jcaut Posts: 1,849
    edited February 2003
    Does Denon claim that this receiver can handle 4 Ohm loads? Did you contact them about it? From the info that you quote from the manual, it sounds like they don't intend for the amps to drive anything lower than 6 Ohms.

    That said, it is my opinion that you probably CAN drive the 4 Ohm LSi's with it--- at least if you listen at relatively low volumes---. Just be mindful of the heat that the receiver is producing, since it's heat that will kill the transistors in the amp. Most receivers will shut down if they get too hot, before things start frying, but if it does get to that point I wouldn't push my luck any further.

    If you've invested in LSi9's, you really need to get a better amp to drive them properly. You'd be much happier in the long run. The harsh highs that you describe could very well be due to the receiver.

    Jason
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited February 2003
    Jason, Thanks for your comments. Here is what Denon says:
    CAN I USE 4 OHM LOUDSPEAKERS WITH MY DENON RECEIVER OR POWER AMPLIFIER?

    Yes, you certainly can.

    To understand this a bit better, first realize that all amplifiers are designed to deliver a signal into an electrical "load" or resistance presented by the loudspeaker. We measure resistance in units called "ohms" (after the German physicist Georg Simon Ohm, 1787–1854).

    Conventional wisdom makes an 8 ohm loudspeaker load the most acceptable because it "protects" the amplifier from delivering too much current. A 4 ohm loudspeaker can encourage a marginally designed amplifier to deliver more current than it comfortably can.

    However, you should remember that a loudspeaker’s impedance rating is a nominal or average one: A speaker rated at 8 ohms may actually vary from 5 (sometimes even less) to 20 ohms or higher, depending on the frequency at which you measure the impedance. (Don’t worry about this too much -- good speaker engineers are well aware of these variations and take them into consideration when designing products.)

    In general, you’ll find that Denon products are designed to function with a wide variety of loudspeakers and have power supplies and output circuitry more than able to meet the current demands of low impedance loads.

    In the rare event that very low impedances tax the amplifier, quick acting circuitry will protect it from damage. If unusual operating conditions trigger this circuitry, the word "PROTECTION" will appear on the unit’s front panel. If this happens, simply turn the unit off, wait a moment or two, and turn the unit back on again. The protection circuitry will automatically reset. If it re-engages, check your system for possible malfunctions.
    If you've invested in LSi9's, you really need to get a better amp to drive them properly. You'd be much happier in the long run. The harsh highs that you describe could very well be due to the receiver.
    Definitely the plan, right now I am just trying to gauge the potential/suitability of the 3030 to drive surround back speakers, in addition to the Rotel, or whether I need to add another amp to do this. And as long as there is no chance that I will blow the 9 while I am doing this, I am happy! Thanks again, Jason...
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited February 2003
    Sean,
    thanks for the warning, heavy bass track at flat (12 o'clock bass) should NOT cause the drivers to be overdriven, assuming you have the volume cranked moderately (loud enough to have a conversation), or did I miss it? honestly, I am torn right now, the sound (clarity, detail, tightness) coming out of the Denon is definitely not even close to the Rotel. I've been reading some review that speak highly of the 3030 (it's a 9 years old receiver), and its ability to drive Infinity Kappa 9 series with ease, so I am trying to determine if power or pre is the issue here. My initial assessment is both, I don't believe that Denon pre section is clean and detailed enough....power is the one that I think is actually a bit better, although Denon is NOT certifying its amps/receivers to drive anything less than 6 ohms.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • fireshoes
    fireshoes Posts: 3,167
    edited February 2003
    Did you just get the 9's? They have a long break-in period and will soften with extended use.
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited February 2003
    fireshoes, thanks, yes it is still brand spanking new. I will slowly breaking it in...

    Sean,
    I will definitely watch out for it..
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited February 2003
    Originally posted by ATCVenom
    Polkatese,

    The Denon should run your speakers just fine. Though I highly recommend treating these speakers to a cleaner, higher current amp and pre-amp. They will thank you in the most beautiful way!

    A fair warning however, dont use any heavy bass tracks with the LSi-9's. I did so and one of the drivers just couldn't take it. Make sure you got a sub to accompany these things........

    A more likely scenario is that they heavy bass tracks were demanding more of the amp than it was capable of. Heavy bass really takes up a lot of juice (one reason we use powered subs) and will send a lower wattage amp into clipping fairly quickly. I COULD be wrong but I'm willing to wager that's what happened.

    A few months ago, I hooked a buddy up with a 50wpc Adcom amp that I found cheap. Anyway we hooked it up to my B&W 601S2's and put in the William Tell Overature (Telarc 'Round Up') the heavy bass taxed the amp at fairly low volumes. We then tried my Carver m1.5t (350wpc) and it played as loud as could possibly imagined with no sign of strain or distortion.

    Just my .02

    BDT

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited March 2003
    Troy,
    I never run any of my amps (for the past 20+ years) into clipping. I am curious, on average, take it at a very basic level, what would be the volume knob at? 12 o'clock? or less? For some odd reasons, I don't ever remember to drive my amp beyond 10 o'clock, before the sound become unbearably loud, so I wonder how loud (if it has any correlation to clipping) that would be? I am strictly speaking of any reputable brands out there since I am sure that trying to run my speaker on a 1 watt amp. would give me complete distortion round about 8 o'clock on the volume... Thanks, bud!

    ps; I supposed I could measure it with SPL meter to correlate it to the volume knob level...
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited March 2003
    It depends on a lot of things. Bass frequencies requires more power than treble frequencies so it is theoretically possible, depending on the power of your amp and how much head room and so forth to clip at lower volumes when playing heavy bass tracks. When the amp clips, it intoduces a lot of ugly distortion to the speaker that can cause all kinds of damage.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by TroyD
    Bass frequencies requires more power than treble frequencies.

    That's an understatement. Heavy bass requirements is what clips amps, not mids and highs. It's awful hard to drive an amp to clipping that is high passed.

    Polkatese, I think your question is really hard to answer, and depends on way too many variables for a single pat answer. You would actually need an oscilliscope to evaluate the waveform output of the amp to be sure.

    You can never have too much power. Oversizing your amps so they can produce loud levels cleanly at nowhere near their max volume setting is the WTG.

    The only reason I can get away with a mid-fi AVR and still have plenty of clean volume is because I'm asking a dedicated 525 watt amp to handle all my bass. My AVR is not working hard high passed at 80 Hz - it sounds dynamic and clean. If I set all my speaks to large, it sounds much more strained at high volumes - clearly it's not a powerhouse amp section.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited March 2003
    Troy & Dr. Spec,
    Thanks for the explanations, my curiosity is around how do you get a semi accurate estimate of how much true amp wattage needed, in any given environment, given speaker size, load, etc. as to drive speakers adequately. Case in point, I felt that in my listening environment, 100 watts X 5 all channel driven is adequate, but if I have the opps to uprgrade the amps, what would be the real benefit of upgrading to 200 watts X 5 ? what is adequate?
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    edited March 2003
    polkatese,
    Denon's run alot better driving 6ohms or better.4 ohms they can play but you loose all dynamic range.It sucks the life out of it.I have tested lsi on Denon and found it to be terrible.I owned the Denon avr3801 which was 105 x 7.Not a true rating as when driving all channels in an 8 ohm load,it dropped to 80 watts x7.
    Lsi and Denon don't mix.I would consider using something else.(Maybe the rsx1065????)If upgrading your main system is going to happen,I wouldn't worry about this.
    Back to the Denon and Lsi,it was my Lsi15's.I drove them with then Denon for about a week.I really didn't care for the sound quality,It struggled,and at high volumes distorted.It also got hot,not good,so I ran out and Picked up Rotel 2 channel seperates.
    100 watts is alot of power.Remember that using 4 ohm load vs 8 ohm load, the output changes,sometimes for the worse.
    The mighty Denon avr5803 can drive 4 ohm loads as well as the Denon avr4802.But same thing happens to them,they loose dynamic range.I personally think that if your going to use Denon receivers,stick with 8 ohm load speakers,they perform there best there.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.