Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD?

Early B. · October 2007

jakelm wrote: »

HDMI switches are just for HDMI AVR's or HDMI TV's. Those switches will not get you HDMI audio for a reciever like yours and mine with no HDMI input.

Until they come out with a HDMI/analog audio converter, there is nothing we can do, except buy a player with analod out.

Gotcha.

BTW -- can you convince my wife that I gotta upgrade my receiver?:p

jakelm · October 2007

Early B. wrote: »

Gotcha.

BTW -- can you convince my wife that I gotta upgrade my receiver?:p

If you can convince mine....

I think I will have to die with my older HK635, or divorce.

HMMMMMMM...I wonder which is cheaper... AVR or seperates with HDMI or divorce?.... I think its a toss up..

Early B. · October 2007

jakelm wrote: »

HMMMMMMM...I wonder which is cheaper... AVR or seperates with HDMI or divorce?.... I think its a toss up..

It's cheaper to keep her...

Systems · October 2007

There’s a lot of talk about these formats on the AVS and I’m still playing with them on my Onkyo 805. I’m still confused about it all but I have yet to get a Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD to display it on my Onkyo, even if I select it on the HD-DVD or BR movie. One guy said that the only player out there that truly does them is a brand new Samsung BR player coming out soon. I cant verify this. But when I chose TrueHD on a movie, my Onkyo still only lights up the 5.1 channels but it plays them (with sound out the rear) with my Onkyo set at "THX Ultra 2". I still need to do testing with this all on my PS3 and A30 player. If I find anything new Ill report.

jakelm · October 2007

What does the Onkyo display with dvd is set to truehd?

Is the player hooked up to HDMI to the Onkyo?

My understanding is, you wont get TrueHD over digital or analod connection to AVR, only HDMI. So the HDMI has to be connected to Onkyo.

Early B. · October 2007

Here's a good read on the new HD formats: http://hometheater.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=hometheater&cdn=gadgets&tm=110&gps=15_617_1002_569&f=00&su=p284.8.150.ip_&tt=6&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.html

Early B. · October 2007

My HD-A2 arrived today. Here's what the manual (page 24) says about this issue:

You can enjoy the benefits of Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD by connecting the HDMI output of your player to an AV receiver with an HDMI audio input. You can listen to down-converted Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby
TrueHD as well as Dolby Digital and DTS using a receiver with Dolby Digital and DTS decoding capabilities and an optical digital input.

Are these statements consistent with your experiences? Are you getting better sound quality with HDMI?

millerman 3732 · October 2007

Yes and no, if your talking about with the new formats (DD+,TrueHD,DTS-HD,etc.) then yes you will get better sound with the HDMI output set to PCM and letting the player decode the new formats, because you will be getting the full signal not a down converted one like you would get with coax or toslink. If your talking about straight DD and DTS its really up to your ears and your AVR wither you you want the player to decode it and send it out via HDMI (which is what I do but with the analogs) or let your AVR decode via coax or toslink, at that point its really up to you. I hope that make since.

BIZILL · October 2007

Silverti wrote: »

There’s a lot of talk about these formats on the AVS and I’m still playing with them on my Onkyo 805. I’m still confused about it all but I have yet to get a Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD to display it on my Onkyo, even if I select it on the HD-DVD or BR movie. One guy said that the only player out there that truly does them is a brand new Samsung BR player coming out soon. I cant verify this. But when I chose TrueHD on a movie, my Onkyo still only lights up the 5.1 channels but it plays them (with sound out the rear) with my Onkyo set at "THX Ultra 2". I still need to do testing with this all on my PS3 and A30 player. If I find anything new Ill report.

the toshiba a-35 has trueHD pass-through. it'll light up 'trueHD' on a compatible avr. so will the xa-2, when they release that firmware.

another reminder since there is mention of the xa-2, it is 1080p/24 capable. actually, so is the a-35. not that my tv could take advantage.:(

izafar · October 2007

Silverti wrote: »

Im still confused about it all but I have yet to get a Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD to display it on my Onkyo, even if I select it on the HD-DVD or BR movie.

The Onkyo will display it once the player will pass the bit stream for Dolby True HD or DTS HD MA. There aren't many players in the market that does that. Most of the players decode these signals and pass them to AVR as PCM signal. This works fine as long as you dont want to do additional decoding in the AVR , i-e converting 5.1 PCM signal to 7.1 etc.

izafar · October 2007

EarlyB,

Onkyo 705 will be the most cost effective option for you. It does all the decoding and has pre outs so that you can use it a Pre-Pro with separate amps. You cannot use the Toslink to HDMI converter mentioned in the eBay listing as toslink cannot handle bit rates of newer formats.

millerman 3732 · October 2007

But you will still have to let your A2 decode the new formats to PCM because the A2 will not pass those as bitstream for the Onkyo 705 to decode, like izafar said earlier.

Early B. · October 2007

izafar wrote: »

EarlyB,

Onkyo 705 will be the most cost effective option for you.

Hmmm. I like this silver Onkyo 805!!!

cheddar · October 2007

Silverti wrote: »

There’s a lot of talk about these formats on the AVS and I’m still playing with them on my Onkyo 805. I’m still confused about it all but I have yet to get a Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD to display it on my Onkyo, even if I select it on the HD-DVD or BR movie. One guy said that the only player out there that truly does them is a brand new Samsung BR player coming out soon. I cant verify this. But when I chose TrueHD on a movie, my Onkyo still only lights up the 5.1 channels but it plays them (with sound out the rear) with my Onkyo set at "THX Ultra 2". I still need to do testing with this all on my PS3 and A30 player. If I find anything new Ill report.

The Samsung BDP-1400 can bitstream the new lossless formats to a receiver.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Firmware_Upgrades/New_Samsung_Blu-ray_Player_Unlocks_DTS-HD_Master_Audio/1012

The PS3 is hardware limited and can't be upgraded via firmware to bitstream the high def formats. However, it already decodes TrueHD internally and rumor has it that it will decode DTS-HD MA by Christmas via a firmware update. So only a receiver that is HDMI 1.1 and above is needed to hear those tracks. Uncompressed LPCM tracks don't need to be decoded as they are already in the needed PCM format for the receiver.

Also, here is a good comprehensive read on the full alphabet soup for the high def formats. There are only three lossless formats, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, and Uncompressed LPCM. Although DD and DD+ are good at 640kbps and indistinguishable from each other, you can hear a noticeable difference between those two and a good mastered track in the lossless versions. But YMMV depending on how well the track is mastered in the first place.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Audio_Explained/1064

Early B. · October 2007

cheddar wrote: »

Also, here is a good comprehensive read on the full alphabet soup for the high def formats....

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Audio_Explained/1064

Huh?

Here's a couple of sentences I lifted from the end of the article:

At the time of this writing [Oct. 12, 2007], no HD DVD players will decode either a DTS-HD High Resolution or a DTS-HD Master Audio audio track. The players are limited to extracting the DTS cores, or (on selected player models) may be able to transmit the codec bitstream to a receiver using HDMI 1.3. Support for these DTS formats will hopefully expand with future player models or firmware updates to existing models.

WTF? I was thinking about rushing out and getting a cheap receiver with HDMI just so I can take advantage of the imroved SQ, but I suppose I'll wait a while and see how all of this stuff works out. By spring 2008, all new receivers should contain the new HD formats.

Addendum: OK, I looked back at the description of audio features for the HD-A2 and after listing all of the new formats, it says, "(core only)." Now I know what it means. Hopefully, in the near future Toshiba will create a firmware upgrade to read these new formats.

Damn -- I bought an HD-DVD player partly to take advantage of the improved SQ. Next time I'll do more research. Certainly don't regret the purchase, though. Haven't tried an HD-DVD disk yet. Gonna do that Sunday night.:D

jakelm · October 2007

I dont know but...I just watched SD Transformers on my XA1 , beats my Oppo in SQ and upscailing, hands down. Going get the HD version tomorrow.

cheddar · October 2007

Early B. wrote: »

Addendum: OK, I looked back at the description of audio features for the HD-A2 and after listing all of the new formats, it says, "(core only)." Now I know what it means. Hopefully, in the near future Toshiba will create a firmware upgrade to read these new formats.

Damn -- I bought an HD-DVD player partly to take advantage of the improved SQ. Next time I'll do more research. Certainly don't regret the purchase, though. Haven't tried an HD-DVD disk yet. Gonna do that Sunday night.:D

There really are only a handful of HD-DVDs made with DTS-HD MA tracks from smaller studios (new line IIRC). Of the big three studios supporting HD-DVD, Warner has consistently included TrueHD tracks with its movies, but Paramount and Universal have mostly ditched lossless tracks on their releases. So you should look for Warner titles to sample TrueHD.

On the blu-ray side, you can get the TrueHD tracks from Warner too. But you have other choices. Fox movies have consistently included DTS-HD MA tracks. Sony includes TrueHD, uncompressed LPCM, or both (great for A/B testing between the two lossless options). Disney/Buena Vista includes some great uncompresssed LPCM tracks with the Pirates movies being reference quality. And many smaller studios such as lionsgate (uncompressed LPCM) and new line include lossless tracks as well. These last two studios also produce tracks in full 7.1 surround too, although FOX has produced some 6.1 surround tracks as well.

BIZILL · October 2007

hey early, fear not. upgraded firmware, they are a comin'. don't put too much emphasis on dts-hd. too many people do. that is but one lossless format. trueHD and pcm have you covered.

cheddar · October 2007

BIZILL wrote: »

hey early, fear not. upgraded firmware, they are a comin'. don't put too much emphasis on dts-hd. too many people do. that is but one lossless format. trueHD and pcm have you covered.

Actually I wouldn't wait for too many uncompressed LPCM tracks on HD-DVD as they are much bigger than compressed TrueHD or DTS-HD MA tracks and won't fit comfortably on a 30GB disk.

Even Transformers had to forego a TrueHD track because they wanted to pack extras onto the one disk.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1110/transformers.html

Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality.

Of course the DD+ track of Transformers is supposed to be outstanding. But maybe they could have taken it even further with a TrueHD track.

jakelm · October 2007

SCREW THE EXTRAS!!!!!!!!....:mad::mad::mad:

Give me a better picture and better sound.....Isnt that ther prupose of HD???

I didnt know the purpose of HD was to deliver bad audio and a **** load of special features.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

2 DISK ISNT ENOUGH SPACE??????? Then make it 3 disk or 4...I dont care... Just make it as good as it can be, even if the "precious" extras have to go on another disk...:mad::mad:

And to be honest...I would pay more...

Give me a break.....Now I'm mad...:mad::mad::mad:

You know why LOTR is so awsome..because they didnt care how much space was needed, they did it the best they could...

Early B. · October 2007

jakelm wrote: »

I dont know but...I just watched SD Transformers on my XA1 , beats my Oppo in SQ and upscailing, hands down. Going get the HD version tomorrow.

Cool. Let us know how the SQ compares betwwen SD and HD.

jakelm · October 2007

Early B. wrote: »

Cool. Let us know how the SQ compares betwwen SD and HD.

Will do my friend...Yall have a great weekend.

Deadof_knight · October 2007

Yea I can see that going over real well with the wife , Babe I need this becuase uhhh,,,,the cables are much better yea right ! NO!
but baby please all the other guys are getting theres !

Muahaha

LuSh · October 2007

Just a few tid-bits...

Blu Ray has a distinct advantage with lossless audio formats in that Toshiba opt'd for advanced authoring when making HD DVD disc's which makes it very hard for them to get around the bit-stream process of Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA. Advanced authoring allows the player to mix audio (disc menu audio) on-top of HD DVD movie soundtracks. It would appear they've finally found a work around with Dolby True HD with the new HD 35 player.

The Samsung BDP 1400 has been released and is the first affordable player which supports the bit-stream of the new audio lossless formats. A firmware enables the player to unlock the DTS HD MA flag and transmit the signal to an HDMI 1.3 receiver with Lossless audio decoders. Pioneer Elite has a much more expensive player which can perform this. Panasonic and Sony will have players out before Christmas.

DTS HD Master Audio is the holy grail of multichannel audio with upwards of 24.5 Mbps of information being transfered. Fox Studio's has brought forth a number of its tittles using this lossless audio format. Try playing Plant of The Apes in DD 5.1 and then do a direct comparison to DTS HD MA. The differences won't be subtle. The new Die Hard releases for Blu Ray will also utilize DTS HD MA; that should be a new reference in audio.

LaP · October 2007

From what i know to take advantage of Dolby HD you need a Dolby HD receiver with HDMI 1.3 support. The only ones i know are made by Onkyo. I just bought the TX-SR605 which support Dolby HD. I would like to say how it sound but i don't own a HD-DVD player and i need new speakers

Early B. · October 2007

LaP wrote: »

From what i know to take advantage of Dolby HD you need a Dolby HD receiver with HDMI 1.3 support. The only ones i know are made by Onkyo.

Pioneer Elite makes them, too.

cheddar · October 2007

LaP wrote: »

From what i know to take advantage of Dolby HD you need a Dolby HD receiver with HDMI 1.3 support. The only ones i know are made by Onkyo. I just bought the TX-SR605 which support Dolby HD. I would like to say how it sound but i don't own a HD-DVD player and i need new speakers

And also the new denons support this as well. At this point it is harder to find a player that bitstreams than an avr that will accept it. And the pre/pros seem to be behind the hdmi curve as usual. Although onkyo makes two very popular models that support hdmi 1.3 decoding. The pr-sc885 pro model and its twin the integra DTC-9.8.

But remember that if a player decodes it internally, all you need is analog outs or an hdmi 1.1 compatible receiver/pre/pro.

margate21 · October 2007

hi all sorry to hyjack this thread alittle but i had a newbie question. i have a xa2 (fw1.5) , onkyo 805 and polk lsi 15 hooked together with bjc series 1 hmdi. i have only listened to 2 hd dvds but had to turn up the sound significantly from other dvds. 15dbs difference. is that standard?? also my onkyo reads only multi channel. do i need to change any settings to see dd+

Early B. · October 2007

margate21 wrote: »

i have only listened to 2 hd dvds but had to turn up the sound significantly from other dvds. 15dbs difference. is that standard??

That's interesting. I just finished watching my first HD-DVD movie and I had to turn the volume up several notches, as well.

cheddar · October 2007

margate21 wrote: »

hi all sorry to hyjack this thread alittle but i had a newbie question. i have a xa2 (fw1.5) , onkyo 805 and polk lsi 15 hooked together with bjc series 1 hmdi. i have only listened to 2 hd dvds but had to turn up the sound significantly from other dvds. 15dbs difference. is that standard?? also my onkyo reads only multi channel. do i need to change any settings to see dd+

There appears to be a known issue with the LFE output of the xa2 over analog outs and hdmi connections (although the article below only tested the analog connection). I don't own the player, but here's some info on it in a product review.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/hreview_hdxa2030207.html

My audio receiver doesn't have HDMI, so I opted to use the 5.1 analog connections. I adjusted the player's speaker levels and distances to the same settings that worked quite well for me on the HD-A1. Things sounded pretty good until I hit any movie scene requiring bass. Essentially, there was hardly any LFE activity at all. When the building collapsed in 'World Trade Center,' it did so with barely a rattle. That didn't seem right. I switched over to the DD 5.1 downconversion over the player's S/PDIF output and replayed the scene. The bass slammed me in the chest as I'd expected it should. Clearly something was wrong. Next I went back to the HD-A1, using its analog outputs, and again I got that deep bass rumble.

At that point I broke out my sound level meter and began taking some measurements. Test tones measured normally on the 'Avia' calibration DVD over both analog and S/PDIF. I also put in some known bassy movies on Standard-Def DVD and had no shortage of expected gut-thumping rumble. Regular Dolby Digital and DTS on DVD don't seem to be affected, but LFE output from the HD-XA2's analog connection is clearly too low on both DD+ and Dolby TrueHD from HD DVD discs.

Updated Audio News (June 9, 2007)

Since we first published this review, Toshiba has released a couple of firmware upgrades to the HD-XA2 player, primarily to resolve specific disc compatibility problems. While these updates have not completely fixed the audio issues mentioned above, a temporary workaround for the low bass over the 5.1 analog outputs has been discovered in Firmware V1.6. It turns out that the low bass is a symptom of defective speaker and bass management controls inside the player's audio decoder. For viewers (like myself) with small main speakers who rely on the decoder to redirect bass from other channels to the subwoofer, the player wasn't making any adjustments no matter what settings were entered. Likewise, if an owner had no center channel and needed the dialogue redirected to the left and right front channels, that wasn't working either. As a result, only viewers with a complete set of full-range large speakers were hearing movie soundtracks properly.

Thanks to the thorough testing of AVSForum members MauneyM and others, it has been discovered that changing the "Digital Out SPDIF" setting in the player from Bitstream to PCM re-enables bass and speaker management over the analog audio connections. No, this doesn't make logical sense, as that setting should have no effect on the analog output. Nevertheless, users with small main speakers will find bass restored to the subwoofer channel as desired, with the caveat that ideally a 15 dB bass boost should be applied at the receiver, rather than the expected 10 dB.

The downside to this workaround is that, if you were actually expecting to use the SPDIF output to transmit a digital bitstream for some applications, you'll need to manually adjust that setting each time. There's no clear explanation for why the SPDIF setting would affect the speaker management controls for the analog output, and hopefully Toshiba will continue to work on this problem in future firmware updates.

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD?

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