has anyone compared electrostatics vs SDA's ?
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OldSycamoreTree
Posts: 70
trying to decide whether to bring some acoustats into the main room instead of sda-1b's...
the acoustats are in the garage and they sound superior to the 1b, in some ways at least. In fact they also reflect backwards and the sound outside with the door open was almost like live music.
what experiences do other polksters have with estats and how do they find the sound and reliability ?
thanks.
the acoustats are in the garage and they sound superior to the 1b, in some ways at least. In fact they also reflect backwards and the sound outside with the door open was almost like live music.
what experiences do other polksters have with estats and how do they find the sound and reliability ?
thanks.
Post edited by OldSycamoreTree on
Comments
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I've got Quad ESL 63's and SDA 2.3tl's at home.
Apples and Oranges......depends a lot on your listening area, musical preference, gear etc etc....
I listen to a lot of acoustical, vocals, small ensemble type things. For that, the Quads are pure magic.
If you want to be rockin' with Dokken at 120db with your hair blowing straight back.....go with the SDA's. It's an apples and oranges type thing.
Reliability? SDA hands down. If the acoustats break, good luck getting them fixed or even finding parts for them.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
almost could use a rock room and classical room.
I do listen to Rush and Floyd a lot, and blues such as Stevie Ray and Clapton.
But most of my listening is classical, symphonies as much as concertos.
the speaks trying knock the sda out of the room are acoustat 1's with the latest transformer setup.
Hafler sold this line- same vintage as the 1b's I think.
These acoustats really put out a holographic type of sound and is airy seems more "live." They need a subwoofer but I listed to dark Side Moon with them as was impressed as well. -
Ultimately, it all depends on what you prefer. Ive owned SDAs and ribbon speakers, demod many others. Currently I own a pair of InnerSound Eros MK II electrostatic hybrids with a transmission line woofer system. Set up properly, they provide me excellent imaging and present a seamless, wall to wall multi-layered sound stage with excellent bass. Powered properly, they play loudly and cleanly at hearing loss levels. Ive listened at 105dB measured with a rat shack meter with some tracks, but usually stay around 85db to help preserve what hearing I have left. Flat ESL panels do have a narrower lateral dispersion which results in a smaller sweet spot, but what a wonderful place it is. I listen to rock, jazz, classical and even have a Paula Abdul album on the way. I don't need another pair of speakers as these do it all for me
The MK II panel is very durable. I have a pair here that has a small hole in one panel and they still play without problems from low to high SPLs. Ive been told that kids loved to stick pencils in the stator holes to hear the Mylar pop. Ive seen one panel produce a spectacular arc when powered by an amp whose protection circuitry kicked in, allowing a high voltage spike to pass to the speakers and be magnified by the 50 to 1 step up transformer. No damage occurred to the panel and they still rock out.
Eros MK Is had poor ESL panels which led to the improved MK II panel. Early MK II panels could arc at the edges at high SPLs. This was due to the powder coating not adhering properly to the sharp edges of the rear stator. That problem was addressed on later MK II panels by adding Kapton insulating tape to the edges of the stator. That repair can also be done in the field by removing the panel, as I have done it. Later MK III panels were made of composite materials and declared arc proof. Of course if you destroy them, there are no new parts available. Roger Sanders, the designer of the Eros, told me that panel repair is possible, but cost prohibitive. He is no longer associated with InnerSound but is doing business as Sanders Sound Systems and will repair older InnerSound gear. InnerSound had a small stock of MK III panels buy they were very pricey.
Peter McAlister of McAlister Audio in Canada performed power supply mods to Acoustats that greatly improved their performance.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Rich pretty much covered all the bases in regards to the Eros.
I have the Eros MK II's. My panels have the Kapton insulating tape originally installed by InnerSound.
I have heard SDA's but I prefer the Eros. Not dissing SDA's here - it's a personal preference thing.
The Eros have handeled everything I've played on them (From nine inch nails to Norah) without leaving me wanting. Top to bottom they have it all IMO.
Echoing what Rich said, Sanders still stands behind all the original InnerSound products.
All ESL's aren't created equal. Different strokes for different folks.
Good luck OSTAudio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10 -
OldSycamoreTree wrote: »These acoustats really put out a holographic type of sound and is airy seems more "live."
The "live" aspect of my ESL experience stems from (IMO) a more controlled radiating surface than can be achieved with multiple drivers. I enjoyed my SDA SRS immensely--enough so to spend several hundred dollars upgrading them. But, the cabinet coloration of their sound is instantly obvious when A/B'ed with my hybrid ESL's (Innersound Isis MK 3.5) as is the lack of coherence in the transition between upper mids and highs.
Rich absolutely nailed it with: "Set up properly, they provide me excellent imaging and present a seamless, wall to wall multi-layered sound stage with excellent bass." -
Much has been covered here, and I am in agreement with most of it.
I owned Acoustat Model 8's driven by 4 Acoustat Trans Nova TNT 200's:)
THEY would really play loud with incredible, Electrostatic bass.
The "problem" with them was imaging, in MY room.
They are HUGE, couldn't give them the room they needed.
I went "down: to Acoustat 1 + 1's, imaging fools, little dynamics.
I have owned Dayton Wrights, Quad 63's and 57's, and Martin Logans.
I owned the first production pairs of Martin Logan Monoliths, and ML Aurius, but not the bi wired ones.
Never heard the Innersounds.
Unfortunately, I started smoking cigarettes again:o
Eletrostats do not like smoke of any kind!
I own SRS 2's and like them.
They are forgiving and play loud with sometimes spooky imaging.
They are great for rock, and fun to listen too.
I find them to be very colored, in a musical way.
They are no match for the seamlessness of a good electrostatic or Apogee ribbon.'
I also own VMPS RM 40's, another very transparent speaker, and B&W 801's.
You may want to look at Magnepans, IF you have the room ?
They are somewhere "in between" an electrostat and the Polk SDA'a.
I own many pairs of speakers, and NO one "does it all".
So, pick your poison -
BlueMDPicker wrote: »The "live" aspect of my ESL experience stems from (IMO) a more controlled radiating surface than can be achieved with multiple drivers. I enjoyed my SDA SRS immensely--enough so to spend several hundred dollars upgrading them. But, the cabinet coloration of their sound is instantly obvious when A/B'ed with my hybrid ESL's (Innersound Isis MK 3.5) as is the lack of coherence in the transition between upper mids and highs.
Rich absolutely nailed it with: "Set up properly, they provide me excellent imaging and present a seamless, wall to wall multi-layered sound stage with excellent bass."
The cabinet coloration is also obvious compared to a B&W 801, as is the lack of top end extension of the tweeter, even the improved RDO 194's.
Polk IMHO went for a more "laid back, easy to listen to sound" in the SRS 2's I own.
NOT a bad thing really, because they are FUN as all hell to live with.
And THAT IMAGING, once experienced, is hard to live w/o.
I really like my pair, and since their arrival, nothing else has been hooked up.
IF I can quit smoking, I MAY "go back" to electrostats ?
Big Magnepans can also be fun too
The depth of image from a dipole is addicting. -
SCompRacer wrote: »I don't need another pair of speakers as these do it all for me
Ha! Ha! Wait until you hear the modifed Platinum Mark IV's with those electronics you have.:DCarl -
I own many pairs of speakers, and NO one "does it all".
So, pick your poison
That is right, all designs can be thought of as a compromise. I have made a choice, and these still do it all for me. Go apply your expert absolute elsewhere.Ha! Ha! Wait until you hear the modifed Platinum Mark IV's with those electronics you have.:D
Much better than modded Silvers? Got an active on them things?
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
I remember Rogers Sanders from my Audio Amateur days.SCompRacer wrote: »That is right, all designs can be thought of as a compromise. I have made a choice, and these still do it all for me. Go apply your expert absolute elsewhere.
Much better than modded Silvers? Got an active on them things?
I felt he got screwed in the whole Innersouind deal where IMHO he got ripped off.
He LOST his company!
Like I said, I have never had the opportunity to hear the Innersounds, but many people I know really like them.
The narrow sweet spot would not be a problem for me, I sit still anyway.
Just gotta quit smoking, THAT is my only "problem" with any electrostat. -
My dad smoked and inhaled cigars, which led to lung and heart problems that ended his life early. I tried smoking it in my teen years but didnt stay with it.
Ive read many of Rogers old articles. Most folks dont know Roger was the first to come up with a curved ESL panel, but he preferred the flat design. Id like to get his book on ESLs one of these days but I dont have much time to sit and read. I have spoken with him many times, and we still communicate via email regularly. I figured he would have a pair of Kayas, but he does not. He still listens to a pair of modified Eros MK IIs which have the MK III panels in his home system.
We of the Chicago Area InnerSound Triad were running TAD-60 tube amps on our Eros for a long time. We eventually moved on to SS amps when we could afford it. Now Roger is very friendly, very helpful and not bashful at all about expressing his opinion. He told me I might like the sound of the tube amps but it wasnt hi-fidelity! He took one of my tube amps and ran power and distortion tests on it. He supplied me with the graphs, compared with his ESL amp and his iTube amp. He made his point, LOL, but they still sounded good.
It was a shame what happened with InnerSound. What an awful business plan. I dont know what Gary is doing these days. There was some rumor he was going to emerge with another speaker, but Ive heard nothing more and the InnerSound web site has been down for a while.
Roger is doing well with Sanders Sound Systems. He has been marketing an ESL amp under his name, which is similar to the InnerSound ESL MK II amp and manufactured by Coda to his specs. He did add a larger toroidal that is encased in epoxy with a shield around it. I have one and it is a stellar amp for the money. It works well with ESLs and dynamic speakers. He has added a pre amp and phono pre amp to his line up, and also supplies ICs and speaker cables designed for ESLs. NORVINZ is also a distributor for Sanders now.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
SCompRacer wrote: »My dad smoked and inhaled cigars, which led to lung and heart problems that ended his life early. I tried smoking it in my teen years but didnt stay with it.
Ive read many of Rogers old articles. Most folks dont know Roger was the first to come up with a curved ESL panel, but he preferred the flat design. Id like to get his book on ESLs one of these days but I dont have much time to sit and read. I have spoken with him many times, and we still communicate via email regularly. I figured he would have a pair of Kayas, but he does not. He still listens to a pair of modified Eros MK IIs which have the MK III panels in his home system.
We of the Chicago Area InnerSound Triad were running TAD-60 tube amps on our Eros for a long time. We eventually moved on to SS amps when we could afford it. Now Roger is very friendly, very helpful and not bashful at all about expressing his opinion. He told me I might like the sound of the tube amps but it wasnt hi-fidelity! He took one of my tube amps and ran power and distortion tests on it. He supplied me with the graphs, compared with his ESL amp and his iTube amp. He made his point, LOL, but they still sounded good.
It was a shame what happened with InnerSound. What an awful business plan. I dont know what Gary is doing these days. There was some rumor he was going to emerge with another speaker, but Ive heard nothing more and the InnerSound web site has been down for a while.
Roger is doing well with Sanders Sound Systems. He has been marketing an ESL amp under his name, which is similar to the InnerSound ESL MK II amp and manufactured by Coda to his specs. He did add a larger toroidal that is encased in epoxy with a shield around it. I have one and it is a stellar amp for the money. It works well with Esl and dynamic speakers. He has added a pre amp and phono preamp amp to his line up, and also supplies ICs and speaker cables designed for Esl. NORVINZ is also a distributor for Sanders now.
I HOPE Gary gives Roger back the rights to his speakers.
It was TRAGIC what happened to him.
I posted my opinion of this on Audio Asylum as soon as I read what had happened.
Yes, I MUST quit smoking!
Used to not smoke at all, live in Tampa.
Every "man" here smokes cigars, LOL
Got smoking them and it lead to cigarettes, YUK!
I plan to go back on cigars to wean myself OFF cigarettes, then quit.
TAD amps, is that Paul from Bizzy Bee ?
Paul is an ex Motorola guy like myself, a very nice person too.
I know a few friends who own Sound Labs that like The Parasound JC 1's.
Actually, the Parasound 3500 is very similar to a JC 1, and can be modified ....
I have looked LONg and HARD at the Innersounds, an efficient electroastat, might be for me when I stop smoking / -
That would be Paul from Bizzy Bee. He is about 1/2 hour from me. I only met him once when picking some amps up. He is a SUPER guy. Top notch service and support. If I wasn't so happy with my source I'd try his DAC.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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Yeah, Paul is good peopleSCompRacer wrote: »That would be Paul from Bizzy Bee. He is about 1/2 hour from me. I only met him once when picking some amps up. He is a SUPER guy. Top notch service and support. If I wasn't so happy with my source I'd try his DAC.
I have a LiTE Audio DAC 72 Tube DAC from China.
Really like it, with used old Mullards in it.
what are you running for source ? -
Digital, a ModWright Sony 9100ES with tube rectified PS. Mullard in the PS, MU6900's in the player. If it wasn't for the SACD thing, I'd probably just have a DAC.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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Nice !SCompRacer wrote: »Digital, a ModWright Sony 9100ES with tube rectified PS. Mullard in the PS, MU6900's in the player. If it wasn't for the SACD thing, I'd probably just have a DAC.
I HAD a Meitner Bit Stream DAC, and absolutely loved it.
The 801's tweeters are quite revealing, and there wasn't a BIT of hasness.
Unfortunately, it broke.
I sent it back to a guy who worked for Meitner.
he talked me into modding it:mad:
Stupid me!
It never sounded the same, so i sold it and got the Lite dac 72.
Sometimes, I run my CD player straight into to my amps.
Some have level controls, but it is kinda hokey.
Sounds good though! -
Here is some cool stuff at decent prices.
http://www.pacificvalve.us/ -
If anyone in the Bahsten area wants to drag a pair of SDA's over to my house, we can A/B 'em with a pair of Quad ESL-57's. Apples and oranges it'll indeed be, I reckon.
