Forget listening! It's about specs!

shackshack Posts: 11,284
edited August 2002 in Speakers
You guys need to read this thread over at Home Theater Forum. Someone asks if anyone has compared the Polk LSi15 to the Klipsch KLF30. Some guy pops up and proclaims
The KLF will play much louder and with much lower distortion too and less distortion at any level, loud or soft. The KLF will sound much more dynamic; loud peaks will be reproduced cleanly instead of compressing into a sodden mess.
When he was asked if he had actually listened to the Polks his resopnse was
I've not heard the Polks in question but every direct-radiating home fullrange speaker I've heard, and I've heard many, compresses to a degree unacceptable to me. I don't see why these Polks would be different. Perhaps only when one lives with the free dynamics of big-dog horns can you appreciate the compression that DRs create even when attempting normal peaks. When listening to good horns one is often not aware of how loud they're playing until one attempts to talk, so compression and distortion free are they, so utterly effortless. On the other hand DRs when playing loud always sound "loud". The only DRs I ever heard that didn't compress were large arrays of 15" woofers and the "Wall of Sound" DR PA the Dead used about 30 years ago.
.

It becomes quite a lively dicussion with the horn guy basically saying that no direct-radiating speaker (including Wilsons, Dunlavys, Dynaudios, Sonus-Fabers, Josephs, Vandersteens, Viennas, Martin-Logans, etc., and electrostatics and Magneplanars) can be a good as a horn - Period. He basically looks at compression factors of dr vs the dynamics of horns ie a couple of his comments:
I don't need to hear the Polks to know that a speaker with a 10" woofer and dual 5" midbasses will have poor dynamics,
Sure you tolerate poor dynamics, otherwise you wouldn't like your Polks
one of the best combacks to this guy was
Another thought comes to mind. Call up John Dunlavy (719-592-0859) and tell him his loudspeakers--conventional cones and domes--have poor dynamics. He's a personable fellow and would enjoy talking about it. Get as technical as you'd like--he is both a theoretical and applied-science physicist.

I love this hobby. I can think of no other activity where the percentage of "experts" is very close to the number of participants!

If you would like to read the entire thread thread go HERE
"Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
Post edited by shack on

Comments

  • MxStYlEpOlKmAnMxStYlEpOlKmAn Posts: 2,116
    edited August 2002
    Horn vs dome...i think horns after a long listen can make ur ear drums rattle their so annoying...but their detailed...i havnt heard either speaker...but i'd take the lsi's over the klipsch any day of the year...lol
    Damn you all, damn you all to hell.......
    I promised myself
    No more speakers. None. Nada. And then you posted this!!!!
    Damn you all! - ATC
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited August 2002
    That guy's a raving fool. I think in real life he's an SPL-obsessed, car audio guy.

    Aaron
  • MxStYlEpOlKmAnMxStYlEpOlKmAn Posts: 2,116
    edited August 2002
    i think he attached a cup to the woofer and tweeter of a dr speakers and tied a string to the end of the cup and tied it to another and put his hear to his cup and got his listen on...
    Damn you all, damn you all to hell.......
    I promised myself
    No more speakers. None. Nada. And then you posted this!!!!
    Damn you all! - ATC
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    I have no comment
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • joe logstonjoe logston Posts: 882
    edited August 2002
    bin lalden likes then, the klipsch give he a cave sound.
    . rt-7 mains
    rt-20p surounds
    cs-400i front center
    cs-350 ls rear center
    2 energy take 5, efects
    2- psw-650 , subs
    1- 15" audiosource sub

    lets all go to the next ces.
  • fireshoesfireshoes Posts: 3,212
    edited August 2002
    He probably doesn't adjust the volume when switching between speakers...."SEE! IT SOUNDS BETTER!" Lol.

    I always run into this at work when demo speakers. I usually turn the receiver all the way down before I switch, then they say "Where'd all the bass go?" or "Why does he sound like he's singing in a tunnel?" Hahaha! They other fun one is to throw in some Maynard Ferguson, then watch them cringe. ;)
  • shackshack Posts: 11,284
    edited August 2002
    I guess what amazed me was the fact that in his mind there is no alternative PERIOD! He did not need to bother with a comparison of the 2. I like this hobby for the diversity it offers. Most of the members on this forum seem more than willing to listen to any and all speakers and then make a judgement regardless of brand or technology. We have our preferences but usually will get our listen on!

    That thread seemed to want to use cars for comparison, so here would be a good ananlogy to that thread.

    Q) Has anyone driven a Ferarri 575M Maranello and the Porsche 911GT2? What do you think?

    A) The Ferarri is much better. V-12, 350 cid (5.7L), 515 BHP, 0-60 in 4 sec. top speed of 202 and none of that inferior turbo technology.

    Q) Have you ever driven a Porsche GT2?

    A) No but I don't need to. Just look at the specs. Flat 6, air cooled, only 220 cid (3.6L), 456 BHP, top speed of only 196. You know it is turbocharged don't you? That small engine is having to work twice as hard to come close to the Ferarri. Plus it is AIR COOLED! The Ferarri is a better design and it's Itialian!

    Q) Are you aware that the Porsche has a 0-60 time of between 3.6 and 3.8 seconds? Better that the Ferarri.

    A) That doesn't matter. The Ferarri is better! If you want to like an inferior car that is your business.


    etc...etc...etc...

    I'd take either one:D

    As far a Klipsch is concerned I could see where Klipsch could be a great HT system. The clarity and "Dynamics" could produce a great soundstage for movies. I don't particularly care for them in a dedicated music environment.

    They all have their place and its all good! Go get your listen on!
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
  • shackshack Posts: 11,284
    edited August 2002
    Oh and here is something I don't think I've ever seen before...:D :D:D
    mantis - I have no comment
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    This post left me without words.......
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited August 2002
    These types of guys are a dime a dozen. My guess is he is over 45, and most males will show a drastic upper octave hearing loss at that age (if not sooner). I bet he can't hear much over 12-13KHz to begin with, so his horn may sound like butter to him.

    He provides his opinion on dynamics and yet provides us with nothing to formulate a 'level' of dynamics. Is it voice coil size, throw, Q factor, MI surrounds, Driver size? Simply a horn loaded speaker is naturally more dynamic? Maybe its the LOW crossover point, you know, right smack in a CRITICAL midrange area. This is where the magic must happen, getting an 15' or so woof, to blend with a compression horn, right smack in the middle of the midrange.

    And he also states his opinion as fact, how dare you disagree with (old) Golden ears.

    To each his own, and I think the vots, ev's, klipsch and what not of days gone by are 'neat' in their own right. But you can hardly compare plywood contruction, and speakers mainly designed for low-powered tubes (common in the day they were actually in production), to the virtually inert cabinets, and high-tech driver/network designs of today. Apples and Zuccini was it?

    This guy is not worth talking to, I'd just steer clear all together. It reminds me of my days on Audioreview trying to discuss speaker wire with John Risch. Lots of personal opinions, presented as facts, with no data to back the claims (since they were presented AS facts, not allowing for any disagreement).

    Cars? 0 to 60? Well, if the LSi's are more aerodynamic...maybe they would have the advantage....

    Why does speed become the measuring point if he wants to compare this to autos? Sure, a Ferrari can move down the road quickly, but can it haul 65,000 lbs of amps like a Kenworth? Can it take a family out to eat like a Buick? Can it go off-road like a Jeep?

    It is all relative, in what the indivual is looking for. I guess he thinks dynamic speakers are FAST speakers, I don't know...

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    Russ,
    can you breathe after that post?I think it was your longest one yeat......A good read my bro........

    The words I didn't have you spoke for me....
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited August 2002
    Relative stuff, thats all.

    Will you see 1 inch domes being used at a Dave Matthews concert? No, you will see big compression horns, and TONS of em....

    I'll give you one guess as to what you will and won't see in the studio though, when they master the recording.....(hint: small, not so 'dynamic' drivers hiding behind names like Tannoy, JBL, Polk, Yamaha, Alesis, Galaxy, B&W, etc etc etc.....)


    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,136
    edited August 2002
    Damn......all that from a non-professional.

    I think Russ should at least get honorary 'pro' status. Maybe a boxcutter with no blade or something.

    Just hackin'

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • SystemsSystems Posts: 14,998
    edited August 2002
    I thought that horn loaded spkrs were primarily designed to have high sensitivity & wide dispersion for things like concert, PA, & movie theater settings. But if the guy likes 'em, fine. Altho I can't hear test tones at 16 kHz, tweeters start much lower than that, so even a middle-aged or older person should be able to notice some difference between different brands/styles of tweeters. Whatever.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    TroyD,
    you just dream about being an Installer don't you.One day you might be able to.Russ seems to on his way...long road but on the right track.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,136
    edited August 2002
    help me obi-wan, help me........

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    Patience my Padawan.experience the moment.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited August 2002
    I think I'm gonna PUKE.....
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,136
    edited August 2002
    let's knock it off guys, this isn't our personal chat room you know.....

    Man, Russ puking, whacking it......faaak man. NASTY!

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • nascarmannnascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited August 2002
    I think Russ should at least get honorary 'pro' status. Maybe a boxcutter with no blade or something.

    I'm freakin dying here..... smiley_rotflmao.gifsmiley_rotflmao.gifsmiley_rotflmao.gif
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    Nascarmann just loves those Installer jokes.......I wonder about him as well........O sorry my young Padawan..I can only take on one learner..no more no less.You'll have to wait your turn.

    Puking and wacking....what an effin combo!!!!!
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,455
    edited August 2002
    By the way,
    this post started out on the weirdest foor anyway so .....joke away.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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