Time to replace the old Yamaha avr

muncybob · February 2

Daughter just moved into her new home and is ready to upgrade her amp. Despite my continued suggestions, she continues to reply on a cheap bluetooth device plugged into aux jack on the old Yammy using her iPhone streaming Pandora. I wish she would spring for a better music source...maybe after getting fully settled in her new place.

She does want to upgrade the amp and I've been looking at the Marantz PM7000N. While I've never had one of their amps, I have been happy with my experiences using their cd players. Can she do better at the same ($800 range) or less $$?

I almost want to tell her just stick with what she has since the actual source of her tunes leaves a lot to be desired, but I'm hoping making this change gets her a bit better sound and then maybe realize that hi-rez might get her the improvement she desires.

Tony M · February 2

Plenty to compare here. Can't go wrong with Crutchfield.

I like looking at customer reviews on the products they sell.

This Cambridge Audio receiver looks like something she would like. Great Reviews too.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_779AXR100/Cambridge-Audio-AXR100.html?

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-aVyOeva2aIp/m_10400/Receivers-Amplifiers.html

billbillw · February 2

FYI: I think Brock has been happy with his Marantz PM6007, which should be a similar model.

muncybob · February 3

After a talk with my daughter I realize maybe I'm looking at the wrong products for her? She is 100% sure she will never use a turntable, cd player or anything other than a source to stream music. So maybe we should not be spending $$ on amps that have those options?

I'm no expert in streaming tunes. I have plenty of physical media to keep me happy but I realize that much of today's younger folk don't look at music listening that way anymore.

So knowing that has some decent speakers and that high rez streaming is likely on the horizon, what should she be looking for?

Emlyn · February 3

There are also stereo receivers now that combine modern integrated amp features such as Bluetooth and network streaming with HDMI inputs for better versatility in a combined audio/video system. Leaving out the multi-channel amplification allows manufacturers to focus on including other useful features at a decent price.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033DRA900H/Denon-DRA-900H.html?tp=47041

muncybob · February 3

Yep, I have looked at a few similar to the Denon. But, isn't that spending $$ of features she apparently will never use such as cd, tuner, etc?

Probably should have mentioned the speakers are a pair of Monitor Audio Gold 60. The room is what I would call medium in size...maybe 20X15?

Would a class D amp such as this be a good option? I know nothing about D amps:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G5Z5RH7R?ref=emc_p_m_5_i_atc

billbillw · February 3

Class D and/or Class T (aka Chip Amps) have come a long way in the last 15 years. For her purposes, something of that variety may be ideal. They are typically small, efficient, and affordable. The only question with some is the long term reliability. I'd stay away from the GaN versions for now since some of those are showing some long term reliability issues. For the most part, the standard D/T amps are pretty reliable and the sound is generally good, if not great (for the price).
I have a pair of SMSL SA-50 amps that are almost 10 years old, running 24/7 most of that time and working fine for my computer desktop and in one of my kid's bedrooms. My amps don't have any streaming features, but SMSL, Topping, and a few other Chi-Fi companies like Fosi, IFi, and others seem to have a good selection of choices. Many have been reviewed over at ASR if you care about measurements.
I think the biggest hurdle is choosing one since there are so many choices. It seems like the manufacturers are constantly pumping out new models and there isn't a lot of difference between them. They add one or two features, fix a flaw from a previous model, or use a different chip for the amp. It's hard to keep them straight.
Similar to the Fosi model you linked is the SMSL AO300 Pro, which is just $20 bucks more, but seems to have some features that may be better for her use. The AO300Pro includes HDMI eARC, and a headphone output. The HDMI would make integrating with a TV much simpler.
Note: I would probably buy that SMSL from Aoshida since they are the authorized vendor for SMSL on that product. You would probably have better support if there was any issue. https://aoshida-audio.com/products/smsl-ao300-pro

Upstatemax · February 3

https://www.audioadvice.com/products/eversolo-play-streaming-amplifier?variant=42077454401620&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22415935887&gbraid=0AAAAADRzHk8m8RQ0DJAxeJ45BD_2-X7UA&gclid=CjwKCAiA1obMBhAbEiwAsUBbIj3xJT_Nx51GFyVrQf0uks36ZT-eSvPNambFoku9rI2Jf8hdpmuQ7hoCIH4QAvD_BwE

Or:

https://www.wiimhome.com/wiim-amp-ultra/

Or:

https://www.wiimhome.com/wiimultra/overview

+

https://www.wiimhome.com/wiimvibelink/overview

All of them have excellent built in streaming services/connectivity and punch WAY above their price points.

Emlyn · February 3

I'm enjoying a WiiM Amp Ultra in my office. It's not compatible with Airplay, the display screen isn't much of a functional touch screen, and the PC app isn't very good, but other than that no complaints. Using with an iPad or Android phone is seamless. It's supposed to do 100 watts into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 ohms.

The Monitor Audio Gold 60 speakers are nice.

muncybob · February 4

Thanks for the links, I must say, some of those specs blow me away for an amp under $300!

Upstatemax · February 4

muncybob wrote: »

Thanks for the links, I must say, some of those specs blow me away for an amp under $300!

The Vibe Link amp is shockingly good for the $$$. My dad runs the Ultra streamer and Vibe Link amp on his porch setup, connected to Totem Arro speakers.

We spend a ton of time out there in the summer and fall, it's a great little system.

billbillw · February 4

muncybob wrote: »

Thanks for the links, I must say, some of those specs blow me away for an amp under $300!

Well, I hope your realize those power output claims are quite exaggerated. Expect more like 50wpc of clean power, at least for the SMSL AO300. Still, they are quite capable and clean sounding, especially for the price point. I can't comment on the WiiM offerings since I haven't had any hands on with that brand.

Upstatemax · February 4

I'll note, to get full power from the Vibelink amp, you need to utilize the amps digital inputs (Optical/COAX).

Something about higher efficiency and lower distortion from unnecessary analog conversion...

muncybob · February 4

What impressed me most was the watts at 8 ohm and 4 ohm. When that number is nearly doubled at 4 ohm, does that not indicate good headroom?

muncybob · February 4

Upstatemax wrote: »

I'll note, to get full power from the Vibelink amp, you need to utilize the amps digital inputs (Optical/COAX).

Something about higher efficiency and lower distortion from unnecessary analog conversion...

Would that be true with bluetooth connection?

Upstatemax · February 4

muncybob wrote: »

Upstatemax wrote: »

I'll note, to get full power from the Vibelink amp, you need to utilize the amps digital inputs (Optical/COAX).

Something about higher efficiency and lower distortion from unnecessary analog conversion...

Would that be true with bluetooth connection?

I don't think the Vibelink itself offers any streaming/BT connectivity.

You would want to use it in conjunction with something like the Wiim Ultra that would handle all the streaming and BT. Just use an optical or COAX between the Ultra and Vibelink, if you want to make sure have all the power that's possible from the amp available.

You can use the RCA connections, but the power ratings drop to 60W@8 and 120W@4.

To be honest it's not a huge difference that we noticed between RCA and optical, at least when connected to the Totem Arro speakers. But it was a bit fuller with a better midrange.

billbillw · February 4

muncybob wrote: »

What impressed me most was the watts at 8 ohm and 4 ohm. When that number is nearly doubled at 4 ohm, does that not indicate good headroom?

That's where I was saying the numbers might be somewhat inflated. In general, Class D/T are fine with 4 ohm load and often perform better at that load. However, when I follow the power/distortion graph they have on the page, I read it a bit more conservative, especially at the 0.003% THD they show next to this slide.

I trust the graphs more than the slide.

Regardless, it should have plenty of power for her setup.

pitdogg2 · February 4

One might want to keep in mind that is not a 20hz-20khz, usually they get those number only at 1khz which is a very easy load to boost higher numbers.

Upstatemax · February 4

This was one of the vibelinks tests, done at 40hz, to be honest, not sure exactly what it means, just that it’s at a different frequency than 1khz

billbillw · February 4

Here is a complete review at ASR of the earlier A300 model, which is supposed to use the same amp chip and volume control chip. Keep in mind, they tend to make improvements with each iteration, but that amp chip is only capable of so much. We also know Amir is a harsh reviewer.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-a300-stereo-amplifier-review.46742/

Emlyn · February 4

The WiiM Amp Ultra is basically the Vibelink amp and the Ultra streamer combined into one unit and is their latest product. A bit of a benefit over the Vibelink alone is the full amp power is available with the internal streaming section used as the source. As noted above, the Vibelink makes full power only through using its digital inputs. I'm powering a pair of Polk Reserve R100s with my Vibelink and an analog source with no issues.

billbillw · February 4

Those WiiM test very well at ASR as well. Very stout amps. A bit higher price point, but maybe worth it long term.

muncybob · February 5

Can the screen on the Wiim Ultra be turned off? The unit would be sitting on a cabinet directly below her TV and would be a distraction.

Upstatemax · February 5

muncybob wrote: »

Can the screen on the Wiim Ultra be turned off? The unit would be sitting on a cabinet directly below her TV and would be a distraction.

According to Google, yes it can. Either directly on the device, or through the app settings.

muncybob · February 5

It occurred to me that she should upgrade her lampcord speaker wires while doing this. She needs a total of 20' non terminated. Anybody ever satisfied with some from Amazon, or would a trip to Best Buy do the same?

Upstatemax · February 5

For me, I've found the Canare 4s11 wire to be the best "bang for the buck" wire.

https://www.performanceaudio.com/products/canare-4s11-star-quad-speaker-cable-black?variant=42490624311474&country=US&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21026401582&gbraid=0AAAAAD4DT3IXB6b8K24Z_egGtaA9XJ7Mw&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnJHMBhDAARIsABr7b84rRxD9lganz_Fk6MeD3CGW0Ok5JVTeRNvZ9HocJUeMgeiX0mgvjokaAhSEEALw_wcB

pitdogg2 · February 5

save some money.

https://haveinc.com/products/canare-4s11-starquad-speaker-cable-14-awg-per-foot?_pos=4&_sid=9071e389e&_ss=r

billbillw · February 5

Do you have any experience buying from that website? The website seems a bit thin on information as the the seller, location, etc. Performance Audio is a well known store in Utah, that gives free shipping at $49+. It might equal out in cost just adding some extra length...for a 2nd project if you know what I mean.
Also, if you think OFC wire makes a difference, there is this for about 60c per foot more.
https://www.performanceaudio.com/products/canare-4s11g-ofc-oxygen-free-copper-star-quad-speaker-cable-14awg-grey-by-the-foot-1

mhardy6647 · February 5

50 watts at 1 kHz into 8 ohms before distortion starts to soar.

4 ohm data at 1 kHz suggest to me

that there might be some odd (to eyes familiar with Class AB amplifier results) frequency-dependent distortion behavior into this lower impedance load -- which is not uncommon for simple Class D, i.e., PWM amplifiers.
Does this amp have PFFB? I am guessing no.

EDIT: "We"

had a spirited discussion last year about relevant measurements of output power over there @ ASR.

Suffice it to say that the prevailing modernist view on "realistic" assessment of output power is quite divergent with the "FTC '74" standard that some of us know and love -- or at least grew up with!

Current thinking, from my perspective, is akin to the old Institute of High Fidelity "Music Power" standard... which was a standard at one time and for a time, albeit in an era when the industry played fast and loose with output power claims.

mhardy6647 · February 5

LR1000TA LRE 1971 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Lafayette was (IMO) one of the more obvious sources of ambiguously optimistic power claims.

In the early '70s, e.g., we see this "150 watt" stereo receiver; IHF power claimed as 120 watts.
IHF power measurements are typically 30 to 50 percent above "RMS" (continuous) power claims of the FTC '74 kind.
Note four things:
1) This is 'stereo power' (i.e., 60 watts per channel IHF)
2) the frequency/frequency range isn't specified (probably 1 kHz)
3) the load impedance isn't specified (probably 4 ohms, so double the 8 ohm value)
4) the THD isn't specified (probably 1%, but could be 10%)

In "FTC '74" terms, the output power is probably about 20 watts per channel into 8 ohms, 1 kHz at 1% THD.

Specifications on many of the current crop of amplifiers need to be considered similarly (if not identically) for comparative purposes.

pitdogg2 · February 5

billbillw wrote: »

Do you have any experience buying from that website? The website seems a bit thin on information as the the seller, location, etc. Performance Audio is a well known store in Utah, that gives free shipping at $49+. It might equal out in cost just adding some extra length...for a 2nd project if you know what I mean.
Also, if you think OFC wire makes a difference, there is this for about 60c per foot more.
https://www.performanceaudio.com/products/canare-4s11g-ofc-oxygen-free-copper-star-quad-speaker-cable-14awg-grey-by-the-foot-1

I've bought hundreds of feet of Canare 4s11 and hundreds of dollars in other Canare coax and RCA's from Have inc. It is a very reputable company. They have matched prices, gave me deals for a returning customer. TOP Teir Bill.

Here's another excellent cable.
https://www.markertek.com/product/w3104/mogami-w3104-4-conductor-12-awg-superflexible-high-definition-speaker-wire-per-foot

Time to replace the old Yamaha avr

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