2.3TL refinement journey.
Yahweh1x
Posts: 6
So this all started when I inherited a carver MXR150, a set of SDA2Bs and a miscellaneous set of other pieces of gear. This was about 15 years ago, maybe not that long, but close. It sat for years in a damping basement his wife wasn't ready to part at the time. Fast forward, given my life is travel a lot with no real permanent home until recently, so these have been up and down the east coast. I did a complete overhaul on both the MXR150 and SDAs (nothing electrically other than the Mills resistor in place of poly switch). I played them once or twice prior to overhaul and I can not explain the difference in sound. However, I noticed I drive them harder and since they are quite sentimental I decided to run the receiver still but acquire a set of 2.3TLs. They look nearly untouched minutes a couple very minor issues.
I'm sure these questions are sprinkled through this forum, but I figured I'd beat a dead horse. I went through and cleaned everything up, butyl rubber mat on the baskets, tidied up wire harness a little. This is where one of the issues arise, im not sure if these were wired correctly, if ever. I matched what I pulled out when doing the harness, it will be an easy fix at worse case, but I don't see any definitive sources for the wiring schematic. Maybe I'm sleep deprived.
The other thing, I wanted to do a mix of polyester mat and polyfill sheet. Im getting mixed information if anyone has any suggestions on strip size, location, etc... I'll butyl seal the cabinet once everything is finished. My friend is designing a spin off of Larry's rings to print out of fiber reinforced filament, we sill how that goes and a rear terminal plate.
I purchased a M1.5T to biamp with the carver, created my own hi pass filter and clean signal "line out" of an EQ and am using the EQ output on the low frequency to toy with roll off. I need to do the crossovers, but honestly I'm pretty tapped out at this point, but I would love some suggestions on a way to achieve a dark warm sound. Im going to attempt to wind my own inductors for the fun of it at some point and finish the 198-1 replacement. I eventually build my basement around these. I've only got to a stopping point on the right channel.
I'm sure these questions are sprinkled through this forum, but I figured I'd beat a dead horse. I went through and cleaned everything up, butyl rubber mat on the baskets, tidied up wire harness a little. This is where one of the issues arise, im not sure if these were wired correctly, if ever. I matched what I pulled out when doing the harness, it will be an easy fix at worse case, but I don't see any definitive sources for the wiring schematic. Maybe I'm sleep deprived.
The other thing, I wanted to do a mix of polyester mat and polyfill sheet. Im getting mixed information if anyone has any suggestions on strip size, location, etc... I'll butyl seal the cabinet once everything is finished. My friend is designing a spin off of Larry's rings to print out of fiber reinforced filament, we sill how that goes and a rear terminal plate.
I purchased a M1.5T to biamp with the carver, created my own hi pass filter and clean signal "line out" of an EQ and am using the EQ output on the low frequency to toy with roll off. I need to do the crossovers, but honestly I'm pretty tapped out at this point, but I would love some suggestions on a way to achieve a dark warm sound. Im going to attempt to wind my own inductors for the fun of it at some point and finish the 198-1 replacement. I eventually build my basement around these. I've only got to a stopping point on the right channel.
Comments
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Forget the bi-amp BS and get rid of the EQ.
Glue the magnets on the mid-drivers.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Why would you wind your own inductors? There are some wonderful Jantzen inductors WELL proven here. You'll need a bigboy amp to drive the 2.3tl's. If done properly they will be about 3 ohms when finished.
I'm however curious as to how you "bi-amp" with a receiver and a amp.
Dark warm sound, Couldn't you just up the resistor values in the tweeter circuit?
Needless to say this will be fun to watch. -
I’ll be watching this thread, interesting build.
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You want a great set of 2.3tl’s? Then keep it simple…
Why the overkill on the dynamat looking stuff? Not necessary, a waste of time, and it looks horrible IMO.
Again, keep it simple, and you will be rewarded in the end..
I do look forward to see what comes of the rings.. -
Forget the bi-amp BS and get rid of the EQ.
Glue the magnets on the mid-drivers.
I've got the epoxy at home, just wanted to get the sound dampening done first. Why ditch the bi-amp? And the EQ is just there temporarily for me toy with for the time being. -
What do you expect to gain?Why ditch the bi-amp?
EQ's are noise factories. Keep it simple, feed it quality power, preferably something that doubles down on the power as you decrease the ohms.
I'm a huge Carver fan. I've had both the TFM25 and TFM45 both fully gone through with all caps and other stuff replaced as well as all service bulletins applied. The TFM45 on my fully modded 2.3tl's couldn't come close to my Aragon 8008bb, it was just no competition. I also had a Adcom 5802 once again it has left the party. Aragon blew them it off the playing field. -
Why would you wind your own inductors? There are some wonderful Jantzen inductors WELL proven here. You'll need a bigboy amp to drive the 2.3tl's. If done properly they will be about 3 ohms when finished.
I'm however curious as to how you "bi-amp" with a receiver and a amp.
Dark warm sound, Couldn't you just up the resistor values in the tweeter circuit?
Needless to say this will be fun to watch.
Frankly, I work nights and don't have anything better to do. I just want to see if I'm capable of doing it. Doesn't really seem too much of hurdle. Ive got plenty of variable speed motors and extruded aluminum!
I dont have enough real world experience with the sonic differences from different component type and manufacturer to confident spend some of the cash I've seen things cost... $600 capacitors
At the end of the day when I find the roll off I like it will be an good starting point to tune a line level hi-lo pass and I'll do away with the EQ completely. For now, I'm using it as a temporary kind of signal split crossover and way to attenuation the signal, designating the 150 for the high frequency with the high pass filter roll off around 220hz. I'll use the EQ to toy with the drop. I figure its not like all this can't be easily undone. I appreciate the curiosity. -
For starters, you are not bi-amping without active crossovers.
You don't need to EQ squat with those speakers. Buy a damn good stereo amp or damn good integrated amp and enjoy
what those speakers produce. What you should do is upgrade the crossovers. Do not use Solen, Dayton or Bennic.
Without upgrading the crossovers first all that other stuff you're talking about is putting the cart before the horse.
Oh yeah, you're welcome for the wiring diagrams.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
For starters, you are not bi-amping without active crossovers.
You don't need to EQ squat with those speakers. Buy a damn good stereo amp or damn good integrated amp and enjoy
what those speakers produce. What you should do is upgrade the crossovers. Do not use Solen, Dayton or Bennic.
Without upgrading the crossovers first all that other stuff you're talking about is putting the cart before the horse.
Oh yeah, you're welcome for the wiring diagrams.
I do appreciate the diagrams, I was taking in a lot of information both on here and getting started at work. I apologize, I could have sworn I added it in my responses.
Why is an active crossover needed? I seem to find conflicting information when researching all this. I like the 150, plus it's sentimental, only reason I was keeping it as at least the preamp section. -
Just Google true bi-amping.
The Carver MXR-150 is a receiver. I'm not sure why you think you can use it for bi-amping, which requires a dedicated pre amp, two separate power amps and active crossovers.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Just Google true bi-amping.
The Carver MXR-150 is a receiver. I'm not sure why you think you can use it for bi-amping, which requires a dedicated pre amp, two separate power amps and active crossovers.
You can seperate the pre-amp from the power amp section of the 150 and split the signal. The only reason I'm using the EQ is just a simple place holder for the line level filtering until I found something more suitable. I misunderstood what you meant by active filtering, for some reason I read it as a digital vs analog type filtering type situation(I had almost zero sleep for 2 days when I first read).
As mentioned, the speaker crossovers will be upgraded, just at the moment I'm snowballing the components I'll be using and the cost that may accrue. For the sake of experiment, has anyone ever used old Mallory blue molded caps in areas of the crossover? -
Just Google true bi-amping.
The Carver MXR-150 is a receiver. I'm not sure why you think you can use it for bi-amping, which requires a dedicated pre amp, two separate power amps and active crossovers.
You can seperate the pre-amp from the power amp section of the 150 and split the signal.[/quote}
You need at least two separate power amplifiers to bi-amp, so you are not sharing one power supply. -
Believe it or not caps can make a huge difference, you get what you pay for. Get your read on here;
https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Here are some caps tried and true
Clarity in order of cost; PX, ESA, CSA, MR, CMR
Jantzen; Cross cap, Superior Z-Cap, Silver Z-Cap
Sonicaps, Many have used here including myself for several projects.
Sonicap will have the exact value caps with the exception of voltage, which will be higher and not a problem.
Size of caps are the issue. When you move up to a polypropylene they will be physically larger in size than the 100 volt Mylar caps or electrolytic caps from Polk.
Jantzen also make some great inductors. The C-coil is the best 16mH you can use in the SDA's. For the inductors you need to have the correct values of the mH and ohms or you will foul up the bigtime. -
Believe it or not caps can make a huge difference, you get what you pay for. Get your read on here;
https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Here are some caps tried and true
Clarity in order of cost; PX, ESA, CSA, MR, CMR
Jantzen; Cross cap, Superior Z-Cap, Silver Z-Cap
Sonicaps, Many have used here including myself for several projects.
Sonicap will have the exact value caps with the exception of voltage, which will be higher and not a problem.
Size of caps are the issue. When you move up to a polypropylene they will be physically larger in size than the 100 volt Mylar caps or electrolytic caps from Polk.
Jantzen also make some great inductors. The C-coil is the best 16mH you can use in the SDA's. For the inductors you need to have the correct values of the mH and ohms or you will foul up the bigtime.
I really do appreciate the interest and responses! I have been reading on that review article which is what sparked my interest on experimenting! I've also read on bypass caps and just started reading this if you're interested and come across it. There's an 8th edition now.
http://audioheritage.net/files/Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason.pdf
While I know the effects the components have and the respective values, I have minimal experiences with hearing them. Which always makes me second guess. I will go through all the proper testing before I ever integrate a component. I do try to pay attention to detail.
All this said, my aim is to calculate the CuFt deficit and hopefully mitigate some of the issuse. Even it I have to think outside the box, literally. I have a team of engineers from electrical to mechanical and even some audio engineers I can bounce things off of.
If it's of any interest im finishing some purple heart from my Carver side panels and top and bottom plates. I believe there's a lot of potential in some of the peripheral that can keep everything nice and clean with the proper enclosure dimensions. Here's the carver before I do the cleaning. I have some diodes I plan on upgrading to UF5408-E3 and some other little bits here and there.
So far: Relays, power resistor circui upgrade, power caps, cleaned up the wiring, deoxit nearly everything. Aligned everything. I believe I have like 3-8mv DC offset. It has been fun.
If you have any ideas you can snowball you'd like me to try, I'm your guy.
tential in redesigning the terminal plate to host some of the components. Rhese
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Bypass caps present their own problems and issues. Polk used them because capacitors at the time were not as well designed as they are now. Not to mention Polk wasn't using premium capacitors to begin with.
This is why the 750pf silver mica bypass cap is now omitted from the XO when using premium capacitors. This IIRC came from Mr. M. Polk, I omitted them from all my recapped crossovers including my 2.3tls.
