Acoustical panels - Good or Bad? What say you?

halen · May 11

treitz3 wrote: »

When you come, as with any guest, I would simply allow you to listen to the music. Whatever you would like to hear is game (after a few, select demo tracks).

Criticism is always welcome. That's how we learn and what the Carolina group usually does. It's par for the course.

This hobby can be frustrating and enjoyable on so many different levels. Just have fun along the journey!

Tom

I promise it will not be radio top 10 hits or mountain goat music. Texans are pretty straight "shooters". We love our six shooters. Ha

The mountain goat reference is an inside joke thing with local music lovers back then. All have been great friends ever since. Gawd they used that against me for years.

They even know my fear of snakes. Had a get together once. I grilled. They put a real looking fake snake into my grill. When I opened the grill. I almost died. Hahaha. You guys know who you are/

Jetmaker737 · May 11

Tom,

Would you mind explaining a bit more your cloud panel installation, or maybe post a pic? For instance did you place them at the reflection point relative to your listening position? But I'm thinking maybe it wasn't that simple since you've described that it was a bit of a hassle to find correct position.

I've been considering hanging some clouds, though there are potential WAF issues due to my system being in the living room. But I suspect I have issues there. And what you said about shortening the soundstage height got me curious, as my system tends to project the higher frequencies physically higher in the room. If you were to imagine a tall rainbow, 2/3 the height of the ceiling, with end points at each (R/L) speaker driver, these higher frequency sound cues would be along that arc. This is particularly true for instruments like bells and flutes.

Rick

treitz3 · May 11

As you can see, there is a light inbetween the panels. The first reflection point is actually at the panel toward the system and the light (shining on the rig and the CD collection) acts as a diffuser.

The end result of these particular panels were well received by these ears and actually made more of a difference in blending the system to the room than the side panels, which are (as stated) to the R&L of my ears, at a 45 degree angle.

I have always wondered what affects the ceiling had, ever since I had a fan at the reflection point many moons ago. That fan F'd up the sound and when I removed it and put in a flush mount? The sound improved.

Ever since then, I knew that the ceiling plays a big part in the reproductive effort.....hence, why I ordered what I did.

Tom

treitz3 · May 11

If you are wondering why there is a green dot on the panel? That is what I used to laser line the panels up to the listening position and the rig. It is just a marker, to be used in the future as well.

Stupid stuff like this helps to make measurements easier (so you don't have to do it again). In fact, if you were to walk in the room? You would find about 14 or so of them, scattered about.

3D - 16 point lasers make measurements a whole hell of alot easier when you are trying to be precise. The laser must be within (or preferably at) the middle of the dot.

Tom

Jetmaker737 · May 11

Those look really nice. I would not have thought to use dark colors on the ceiling, but I like it. Food for thought. I would've figured that the popcorn ceiling would give you decent diffusion up there, but apparently not enough to eliminate reflections, eh?

Rick

treitz3 · May 11

Absolutely not. I don't know why anyone would consider that as a benefit for sound.

Tom

Jetmaker737 · May 12

treitz3 wrote: »

Absolutely not. I don't know why anyone would consider that as a benefit for sound.

Tom

Interesting you'd say that as they are widely known for the purpose of dampening sound in a room, which is why they are sometimes called acoustic ceilings. The rough texture scatters sound as opposed to creating clean reflections. If it's a porous material it will absorb some sound as well. I had a popcorn ceiling in the listening room at my old house and I always thought there was benefit to it. It was a very rugged texture though, and very porous (as I learned when I painted it). Yours appears to have smaller popcorns and quite a bit of smooth area along with the popcorns which mine did not. Of course popcorn ceilings are not great for home resale as some people are afraid they're asbestos. Mine wasn't, though it did have bits of mica scattered in it which had a cool effect like stars twinkling.

Rick

mpitogo · June 3

I like em

msg · June 4

VR3 wrote: »

I think you would be amazed at what a few full bookcases can do just in the room

Ikea Billy and local goodwill can maybe get you done for a couple hundies

At first, I thought this was just a recommendation, without punctuation, to billbill for IKEA, and that you were just being familiar, calling him billbill Billy.

But then,

treitz3 · June 5

Jetmaker737 wrote: »

Interesting you'd say that as they are widely known for the purpose of dampening sound in a room, which is why they are sometimes called acoustic ceilings. The rough texture scatters sound as opposed to creating clean reflections. If it's a porous material it will absorb some sound as well. I had a popcorn ceiling in the listening room at my old house and I always thought there was benefit to it. It was a very rugged texture though, and very porous (as I learned when I painted it). Yours appears to have smaller popcorns and quite a bit of smooth area along with the popcorns which mine did not. Of course popcorn ceilings are not great for home resale as some people are afraid they're asbestos. Mine wasn't, though it did have bits of mica scattered in it which had a cool effect like stars twinkling.

Rick

Hi, Rick. Sorry for the delay. I read this and got distracted and then forgot to respond. It very well may make a difference. Kind of hard to A/B your system when it comes to something like this. Personally, I have had systems with and without popcorn and if there is a difference, I sure as heck didn't notice any. Changing out a light fixture or something in the room has had a much more profound effect IME.

BTW, I actually have one of those glitter guns. I bought it when I was in business for myself for a client that backed out of the deal (Grrr.). My Grandfather had a house in Washington State that had this applied to his popcorn ceiling(s) and it does make a very cool effect. Especially in low light situations with multiple light sources from across the house. All you have to do is move your head to see the "stars twinkle".

When we move the system out to the new room, that popcorn and ugly red crown molding are outta here. Of course, then I get to start all over with the new room and its acoustics. That should be fun (not).

I still can't figure out why the center image got smeared a tad bit. Logic escapes me on why that would happen. That's about my only gripe though. I usually listen at around 80dB (give or take) but a couple of weeks ago, the family was out of the house and I decided I wanted to throw down and jam at louder levels.

This is really where the acoustical panels shine. There is a huge difference in the end result as to what hits your ears.

Tom

bcwsrt · June 9

The weekend is coming to an end soon. Just sayin'. 🫣😝👍

Toolfan66 · June 17

I have an odd room as well, these have helped a bunch, I still need to figure out how I’m going to hang the white ones 24x48, I have 3 of them, from my ceiling, I don’t want to put big holes or hooks..

Back story on these panels.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2685336#Comment_2685336?utm_source=community-search&utm_medium=organic-search&utm_term=gik+

I ended up with 14 extra 12 x 48 panels, ended up cleaning up the ones with issues, and putting them in the HT Area in the basement. Still have 6 of them left over..

Joey_V · June 17

Honestly it depends on your goals.

If your goal is the best possible single seat, you need to have absolute control of the room and all flat surfaces. If it’s a living room situation, you need more diffusion than absorption imo.

Toolfan66 · June 18

Joey_V wrote: »

Honestly it depends on your goals.

If your goal is the best possible single seat, you need to have absolute control of the room and all flat surfaces. If it’s a living room situation, you need more diffusion than absorption imo.

You can also overthink the **** out of it, tame the room, and enjoy the tunes…

Toolfan66 · June 19

treitz3 wrote: »

As you can see, there is a light inbetween the panels. The first reflection point is actually at the panel toward the system and the light (shining on the rig and the CD collection) acts as a diffuser.

The end result of these particular panels were well received by these ears and actually made more of a difference in blending the system to the room than the side panels, which are (as stated) to the R&L of my ears, at a 45 degree angle.

I have always wondered what affects the ceiling had, ever since I had a fan at the reflection point many moons ago. That fan F'd up the sound and when I removed it and put in a flush mount? The sound improved.

Ever since then, I knew that the ceiling plays a big part in the reproductive effort.....hence, why I ordered what I did.

Tom

Tom,

What hardware did you use to hang these??

treitz3 · June 19

It was a.....oh, I forget the name.....bracket that they sold. It was something that is constantly (apparently) on back order. You would have to look at previous posts to see what the, "actual" description was and order from there.

Sky something....or maybe cloud bracket?

It's not something you notice. 4 small holes in the ceiling (if measured correctly on the first try) to hang. Very subtle in appearance.

Tom

treitz3 · June 19

Cloud brackets, Larry.

Tom

treitz3 · August 10

Okay, a couple of months have passed by - time for an update.

treitz3 wrote: »

I do know this. There will be no more panels introduced into the room.

Silly me. There are two things folks like us in this hobby never, EVER should say.

#1 - "I'm done"
#2 - "Never"

Well, I am somewhat guilty of the latter.....even though I did not mention that word. I am extremely gun shy of over-damping things based upon my experience - with a well respected (in some circles) audio designer, who shall remain unnamed, and with my own experience with the tuning of the set of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook's.

I recently ordered a set of absorption panels from GIK Acoustics. This time, without the diffusers on them. One other parameter that changed was these are not as thick. They are 2'x4'x1" panels and their sole purpose was an experiment for the first reflection points. For both panels, the total cost of this experiment was less than $200, shipped to my door.

The end result? Wow! The other panels I had slated for that spot bit the big one and were NOT a good solution for that spot. With that said, they still reside in the same exact spot they have since I found their best location.....which was to the R and L of my ears, stuffed way back in the rear corner of the room. As a reminder, these were diffusion/absorption panels that were 6" thick, so they also absorb bass.

Please allow me to get back to the Wow!...

While I have had other things happen within my rig during this time, nothing made as much of a difference as these panels did. Yes, I was very scared of over damping the room. Did that happen? Absolutely not. In fact, this was a very good decision. Now, all of the panels work in conjunction with each other and the room.

The end result was more than I expected as well. I was expecting a major decrease or (hopefully) a slight increase in the sound. As mentioned, it was just an experiment. One that paid off in spades. I owe two people thanks for my reverse stance with regards to not getting any more panels in the room.

displayname wrote: »

I think room treatments are a tool. If you need a hammer, a screwdriver won’t do much. And if you need a Phillips head, a flat head might get you there but it won’t be as smooth.

It was this statement, along with a statement from Trey (@VR3) that made me change my mind. Trey had mentioned that a 1" panel on the first reflection point would be better than a 6" with a diffuser on it. As time marched on and curiosity got the best of me? I figured....why the hell not? A $200 experiment was worth it....just to find out what would actually happen.

Thank you both for your comments. Seriously, thank you.

treitz3 wrote: »

That said, I would love to have back the pinpoint (to the lip smack) imaging of the lead singer).

That is back and in spades. Don't know why. Don't care, TBT. You can now take the lead singer and make it a plural.

Tom

billbillw · August 10

Me thinks you spent too much time writing last night and not enough time listening

Seems like the TL:DR on this is it just takes experimenting and patience. Science doesn't always predict what is best.

F1nut · August 10

You need a bunch of these.

treitz3 · August 10

I already have the largest one in the photo. It's a High End Novum PMR MKII. Works like a charm. I had two in the room before but I didn't like what the second one did. I think you would need three of them or one. One for inbetween the speakers and the other two behind your listening position, angled slightly in front of your ears (at least in my room) or just one.

BTW Bill. I had just gotten done with a 5 or 6 hour listening session when I typed that last night. Had to shut the system down, due to lightning threats in the area. So, I figured I would take the time to update this thread with my findings.

Tom

F1nut · August 10

Ah, I should have known. Of course you do.

F1nut · August 10

A little bit about resonators.

Basically a resonator such as Tom's can be a natural amplifier, but only if it is in phase. If it is out of phase then it attenuates. Either way it vibrates, in this case to the sound waves travelling in the air from his stereo. In addition, the shape, size and material of the resonator determines what frequencies are affected and how it changes the tone it is in sympathy with. Make no mistake, a resonator changes the tone.

That is your resonator lesson for today

treitz3 · August 10

Also, placement is critical with these things, along with tilt and the substrate the PMR sits on. It is a sensitive device (an instrument, if you will) and you do need to tune it to the room. Improper placement can most certainly be a detriment to the end result.

I actually take measurements of the placement, adjust verticle tilt by ear and IME, it has to point (if you are only using one) on axis. Not to one side or the other.

I happen to love it for what it does to many things within the playback effort. Especially with vocals, string and horn instruments. It just makes them sound more real, not reproduced.....very pleasently harmonic in their presentation, if you will.

They do NOT work well at all if you have a lot of reflective surfaces for the frequencies to bounce off of within a room. That scenario will actually cause these to be detrimental to your system.

Mine is set dead, smack in the middle of the two mains, set back about a foot back from the tweeters, with the middle of the PMR being right at tweeter height. The tilt goes ever so slightly below my ears and it sits on a dedicated stand, perched on top of a hardwood plinth.

I have had this thing in hundreds of positions, placed on many surfaces and this is its happy spot for my ears. Ideally, I would like it to be further backthan it is but the real estate available in the current room dictates that is not an option. The next room will be different.

Tom

treitz3 · August 11

I would actually like to find out where to get those mid sized ones, Jesse. I can't seem to find them anywhere.

Tom

F1nut · August 11

The 3 sizes are listed on their site.
https://highendnovum.de/en/products/

They also have these...incense burners?

treitz3 · August 11

PMR Initium...thanks, Jesse. I went to what I thought was their website earlier. Apparently, I was on the wrong one. Much appreciated. At least I know WTF I am looking for now.

Don't ask me what those incense burner/ashtray looking things are...

Tom

schwarcw · August 11

Tom,

After you located the first order reflection points above the R/L speaker, what did you use as the basis for the surface area of panels? GIK and others are "well as much as you can". I am interested in your perspective and others of course

treitz3 · August 12

Hi, Carl. "Technically" speaking, no. I would have needed more up there for that kind of coverage. This was an aesthetically pleasing compromise due to the light location and not filling up the ceiling with treatments (especially since I didn't know at the time of install, if they would work or not)

I would need to get two more larger panels to flank the sides of both of these in order to hit the first reflection point precisely. The panel closest to the speakers is located as close as can be to the first reflection plane, without blocking the light from hitting the rig.

While still in the design phase, the new room will take the actual first reflection point into consideration. The lights will have to be located elsewhere in order to do this.

Currently, only the two 1" large side panels are directly in line with the first reflection points. The carpet takes care of the floor.

As far as the basis of the surface panels? Comments offered to me and other comments read over the years from real users, common sense and faith/hope. GIK did not do an assessment of the room and offer their suggestions. From what I have read, they tend to oversell/over damp a room with a plethora of panels. I could be wrong (no direct knowledge) but if you are interested, I believe their assessment is free.

Tom

schwarcw · August 14

Thanks Tom! I did have GIK do an assessment, and I did buy some panels. I have definitely noticed improvements in the depth of the soundstage as well as more defined vocals/instruments with air around the performers. My room is challenging but I know some cloud panels would help. The attached pic notes the first reflection points R/L with a piece of blue tape. I used a mirror and laser to mark the points reflecting from the ceiling to my mid-range drivers on my speakers. the space between the two points is about 6-1/2 feet. I was thinking (2) 2' X 3' panels. I do have some potential interference with the ceiling HVAC vents.