Pioneer ICE Power and LSi's

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VXR8
VXR8 Posts: 291
edited May 2011 in Electronics
G'day all,

Am going to be upgrading my AVR in the next month to Pioneer SC-LX73 (as branded here in Oz, your SC35). My question is simple, will the ICE amps in the Pioneer be sufficient to 'correctly' power the 5 LSi's I am running now, with external amplification, or will I still need to utilise the external amp? The specs on the Pioneer are at 6 ohm and not 4. I did a search on the forums, but returned no results - your help is appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

Main System
Denon - AVC-4700H
Emotiva - XPA-9
Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
SVS - PB1000 x 2
Foxtel - iQ4
Belkin - Pure AV PF40
Sony K77A9G

Front Room System
PS Audio - Sprout 100
Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
Polk Audio - Legend L200
Post edited by VXR8 on
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,806
    edited April 2011
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    IMO, with the LSi's you are going to need an external amp capable of driving 4 ohm loads.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • VXR8
    VXR8 Posts: 291
    edited April 2011
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    F1nut wrote: »
    IMO, with the LSi's you are going to need an external amp capable of driving 4 ohm loads.

    Thank you for your prompt response - I'll just use the pre outs on the new Pioneer as I am currently with the Denon.

    Thank you once again.
    Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

    Main System
    Denon - AVC-4700H
    Emotiva - XPA-9
    Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
    Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
    SVS - PB1000 x 2
    Foxtel - iQ4
    Belkin - Pure AV PF40
    Sony K77A9G

    Front Room System
    PS Audio - Sprout 100
    Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
    Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
    Polk Audio - Legend L200
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,057
    edited April 2011
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    Whats great about the Ice amps is they can drive 4 ohm loads no problem. You can run a full LSI system off the SC-35 (here model) in a medium size room to reference levels all day long.
    If you have a large room then I would suggest external amps.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • VXR8
    VXR8 Posts: 291
    edited April 2011
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    mantis wrote: »
    Whats great about the Ice amps is they can drive 4 ohm loads no problem. You can run a full LSI system off the SC-35 (here model) in a medium size room to reference levels all day long.
    If you have a large room then I would suggest external amps.

    Thanks Dan,

    I do have a medium size room, so I'll try both the internal ICE amps initially and then the external amp option as required (300 watts into 4 ohm). My concern was not wanting to hurt either the amp or the speakers. I was initially running the LSi9's off of the internal Denon 3808 amps, which 'appeared' to be OK, but after reading on this forum multiple times that external amplification is required, didn't want to risk it.

    Thanks again for the advice.
    Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

    Main System
    Denon - AVC-4700H
    Emotiva - XPA-9
    Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
    Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
    SVS - PB1000 x 2
    Foxtel - iQ4
    Belkin - Pure AV PF40
    Sony K77A9G

    Front Room System
    PS Audio - Sprout 100
    Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
    Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
    Polk Audio - Legend L200
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • slk55amg
    slk55amg Posts: 305
    edited April 2011
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    I have a sony ES 5300 4ohm rated AVR. I purchased a EMOTIVA XPA5, before upgrading to a LSI front sound stage.
    Emotiva XPA5, Sony ES 5300,: Lsi 15,s LSIC, Monitor 70,s, ( side surrounds) FXI 3,s, (rear surrounds)Micropro4000, Velodyne DEQ 10, Sony 55inchXBR 930D Sony BDP 790 Bedroom rig SonyES 3200 RTIA1,s CSIA4 FXI3,s polk PSW 10 SONY 34inch XBR960:cool:SONY BDP550
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,082
    edited April 2011
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    F1nut wrote: »
    IMO, with the LSi's you are going to need an external amp capable of driving 4 ohm loads.

    Yep.....that's the recommendation if you want to get the most out of a full LSi set-up.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited April 2011
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    Mantis has more experience here then most with the ICE modules however one thing that has been reported is the modules not comfortable with lower impedance loads. Gene over at Audioholics couldn't even put through a full bandwidth 4 ohm load into an SC-07 without the unit entering protect mode immediately. He suggested the smallish power supply and cap's as being the reason.

    I don't think LSi's can be driven by many Japanese receivers...
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  • VXR8
    VXR8 Posts: 291
    edited April 2011
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    slk55amg wrote: »
    I have a sony ES 5300 4ohm rated AVR. I purchased a EMOTIVA XPA5, before upgrading to a LSI front sound stage.

    Thanks for the reply - I am currently driving the LSi Series with an Emo MPS2 - 7 individual amplifiers in 1 casing - 200 into 8 ohms or 300 into 4 ohms per amplifier. Consensus appears I should still go this way. Thanks again for your input.
    Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

    Main System
    Denon - AVC-4700H
    Emotiva - XPA-9
    Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
    Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
    SVS - PB1000 x 2
    Foxtel - iQ4
    Belkin - Pure AV PF40
    Sony K77A9G

    Front Room System
    PS Audio - Sprout 100
    Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
    Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
    Polk Audio - Legend L200
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • VXR8
    VXR8 Posts: 291
    edited April 2011
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    heiney9 wrote: »
    Yep.....that's the recommendation if you want to get the most out of a full LSi set-up.

    H9

    Thanks H9 - I don't want to damage the speakers or the amp, so I'll stick with the external amplification.
    Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

    Main System
    Denon - AVC-4700H
    Emotiva - XPA-9
    Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
    Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
    SVS - PB1000 x 2
    Foxtel - iQ4
    Belkin - Pure AV PF40
    Sony K77A9G

    Front Room System
    PS Audio - Sprout 100
    Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
    Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
    Polk Audio - Legend L200
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • VXR8
    VXR8 Posts: 291
    edited April 2011
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    LuSh wrote: »
    Mantis has more experience here then most with the ICE modules however one thing that has been reported is the modules not comfortable with lower impedance loads. Gene over at Audioholics couldn't even put through a full bandwidth 4 ohm load into an SC-07 without the unit entering protect mode immediately. He suggested the smallish power supply and cap's as being the reason.

    I don't think LSi's can be driven by many Japanese receivers...

    Thanks Lush - as I already have the external amplification, at least it won't be any more expense involved with this update
    Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

    Main System
    Denon - AVC-4700H
    Emotiva - XPA-9
    Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
    Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
    SVS - PB1000 x 2
    Foxtel - iQ4
    Belkin - Pure AV PF40
    Sony K77A9G

    Front Room System
    PS Audio - Sprout 100
    Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
    Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
    Polk Audio - Legend L200
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,722
    edited April 2011
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    I agree with Dan (mantis). In anything but a large room that receiver will have no problems driving the LSi line. If you were running the LSi towers I'd say thing twice about it, but on those bookshelves that Pioneer will do just fine.

    I would expect the amps in the SC to sound better than the Emotiva you're running.

    Obviously you're getting two different answers, best to just try it out for yourself and see how you like it.

    Report back and let us know what you think.
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited April 2011
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    ICEpower modules actually love LSis because that class-D technology thrives on low impedances and high power levels. I don't know how the ICEpower modules are modified in the Pioneer receivers, but the stock modules that B&O puts out much prefer low impedance - low sensitivity to high impedance - high sensitivity speakers.
    Jake
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  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited April 2011
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    I have a friend who uses an Elite SC-05 but with 8 ohm Energy speakers. It sounds good. However, I've read about other units and they didn't do so well. I guess one will never really know until you try however read this:

    http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/pioneer-sc-07/sc-07-measurements-and-analysis

    Specifically this paragraph -

    Driving 4-ohm loads was an entirely different story. The SC-07 simply fell apart when running full bandwidth (20Hz to 20kHz) continuous power measurements. As I tested at frequencies above 5kHz with only 1 channel driven, the internal cooling fan would instantly come on right before the receiver would go into gross distortion and shut down at levels above 100 watts. With two-channels driven, I was able to squeeze out a clean 150wpc at less than 0.5% THD. Anything higher would again run the amps into gross distortion and shut off the receiver. I was a bit perplexed in how the receiver managed to better cope with 2 channels driven over 1 and could only surmise that it had something to do with symmetrical load balancing on the power supply. How this receiver was awarded the THX Ultra2 rating was a bit perplexing to me.

    Power output: <0.1% THD + N

    * 1CH, 8-ohms: 150wpc
    * 2CH, 8-ohms: 150wpc
    * 1CH, 4-ohms: 290wpc (1kHz, conditionally)
    * 2CH, 4-ohms: 280wpc (1kHz, conditionally)

    Keep in mind most review publications don't do full bandwidth continuous power measurements and they usually publish power measurements into clipping at 1% THD + N at 1kHz. I've seen this receiver reviewed in other home theater publications where they raved about its power capability and it is clearly obvious to me that they didn't actually run full bandwidth continuous sweeps into 4-ohm loads. This is something I do of all receivers regardless of price.

    For more info on amplifier measurements, see: The All Channels Driven (ACD) Test

    I believe there are several reasons why this problem occurred with the SC-07 when driving 4-ohm loads:

    * Smallish power supply ? remember the 10,000uF caps and skimpy power transformer I previously noted?
    * Inductor saturation in reconstruction filter
    * Intentional current limiting to protect the amplifiers
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  • VXR8
    VXR8 Posts: 291
    edited April 2011
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    Thank you everyone for your input.

    As stated above, there are differing opinions and I suppose if Pioneer specified a 4 ohm speaker load in their specs, it would be there and in your face. The amp I have is class H, so doesn't add any discolouration to the OE sound, other than being 4 ohm stable. Out of curiosity, I will try both methods, as I don't listen at ear bleeding levels, but believe I will be going via the external amp path, just to play it safe. I appreciate the links and all the advice generally.
    Regards - Gaz from the land of Oz

    Main System
    Denon - AVC-4700H
    Emotiva - XPA-9
    Cambridge Audio - Azur 851C - CXUHD
    Polk Audio - Legend L800 - Legend L400 - Legend L900 - LSiM fx - OWM3
    SVS - PB1000 x 2
    Foxtel - iQ4
    Belkin - Pure AV PF40
    Sony K77A9G

    Front Room System
    PS Audio - Sprout 100
    Cambridge Audio - CXC S2 - CA752BD
    Sony - UBX800 4K BluRay
    Polk Audio - Legend L200
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,132
    edited April 2011
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    I will 2nd Mantis I went through the same scenario as I waited for my Sunfire. Played HT well without but blossumed with the extra head room , but if you jam music your pioneer will clip.
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • philaseller
    philaseller Posts: 2
    edited May 2011
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    I have been planning to purchase Ohm Micro Walsh speakers and was looking for a suitable AVR receiver to power them. I understand that the speakers are 4 Ohms. This thread has made me concerned that I am making a mistake. I thought the Pioneer would be a good choice because it's price has been discounted lately. Since I've bought neither the speakers nor the receiver, would you recommend I go in a different direction?
    Thanks
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,722
    edited May 2011
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    How big are those speakers? To put things in perspective, I've run a full LSi setup (4 LSi7 and an LSiC) on the SC-25 at Reference levels (neighbors on vacation) for a full 2 hour movie with absolutely zero problems. I don't have a HUGE room at 15x18x10, but it's not tiny either.

    I would not count on the SC to drive a full tower setup, but with bookshelves your ears will give out long before that receiver does.
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  • philaseller
    philaseller Posts: 2
    edited May 2011
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    Thanks. They're small towers. Room isn't too large, but I'm concerned that the Pioneer doesn't certify at 4 Ohms.Since I haven't bought it yet, I figured I could go a different direction. Though I liked its specs and the IPhone remote.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,057
    edited May 2011
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    LuSh wrote: »
    Mantis has more experience here then most with the ICE modules however one thing that has been reported is the modules not comfortable with lower impedance loads. Gene over at Audioholics couldn't even put through a full bandwidth 4 ohm load into an SC-07 without the unit entering protect mode immediately. He suggested the smallish power supply and cap's as being the reason.

    I don't think LSi's can be driven by many Japanese receivers...

    When I had my Dynaudio Audience series setup all 4 ohm @88db , I ran the entire system off the SC-07 at reference for a full 2 hour movie and not a hint of strain or overheating. I never once got it to clip which when I first got it I thought that was going to be the case. I never intended on using the ICE amps as I was at the time replacing a preamp with this receiver. I liked it that much I was willing to use it as a preamp until I could find a pre I really liked. I also owned a Rotel RMB1095 which ran 330 @ 4ohms and I removed it after all my testing with the Pioneer Elite Sc-07. I sold the amp and the SC-07 is still here powering my system.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,057
    edited May 2011
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    I have ran so many different kinds of speakers with the SC models and never once felt I needed more power.

    I'm currently spec'ing in a SC-37 to power a full Vandersteen speaker package. It will be replacing a B&K avr307 upgraded to a AVR317.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • blueskies
    blueskies Posts: 14
    edited January 11
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    mantis wrote: »
    LuSh wrote: »
    Mantis has more experience here then most with the ICE modules however one thing that has been reported is the modules not comfortable with lower impedance loads. Gene over at Audioholics couldn't even put through a full bandwidth 4 ohm load into an SC-07 without the unit entering protect mode immediately. He suggested the smallish power supply and cap's as being the reason.

    I don't think LSi's can be driven by many Japanese receivers...

    When I had my Dynaudio Audience series setup all 4 ohm @88db , I ran the entire system off the SC-07 at reference for a full 2 hour movie and not a hint of strain or overheating. I never once got it to clip which when I first got it I thought that was going to be the case. I never intended on using the ICE amps as I was at the time replacing a preamp with this receiver. I liked it that much I was willing to use it as a preamp until I could find a pre I really liked. I also owned a Rotel RMB1095 which ran 330 @ 4ohms and I removed it after all my testing with the Pioneer Elite Sc-07. I sold the amp and the SC-07 is still here powering my system.

    This post is the main reason I decided to purchase a sc-05. Do I really need an amp for 4 LSI15's?
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,585
    edited January 11
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    blueskies wrote: »
    mantis wrote: »
    LuSh wrote: »
    Mantis has more experience here then most with the ICE modules however one thing that has been reported is the modules not comfortable with lower impedance loads. Gene over at Audioholics couldn't even put through a full bandwidth 4 ohm load into an SC-07 without the unit entering protect mode immediately. He suggested the smallish power supply and cap's as being the reason.

    I don't think LSi's can be driven by many Japanese receivers...

    When I had my Dynaudio Audience series setup all 4 ohm @88db , I ran the entire system off the SC-07 at reference for a full 2 hour movie and not a hint of strain or overheating. I never once got it to clip which when I first got it I thought that was going to be the case. I never intended on using the ICE amps as I was at the time replacing a preamp with this receiver. I liked it that much I was willing to use it as a preamp until I could find a pre I really liked. I also owned a Rotel RMB1095 which ran 330 @ 4ohms and I removed it after all my testing with the Pioneer Elite Sc-07. I sold the amp and the SC-07 is still here powering my system.

    This post is the main reason I decided to purchase a sc-05. Do I really need an amp for 4 LSI15's?

    Give it a whirl and see how it shakes out.
    First understand that the last I had heard Polk had no more drivers or tweeters for replacement. That means if you cook something your off to eBay to find a replacement.

    Wow the tweeter is pricey!

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=polk+lsi15&_trksid=p4432023.m4084.l1313
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,806
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    blueskies wrote: »
    mantis wrote: »
    LuSh wrote: »
    Mantis has more experience here then most with the ICE modules however one thing that has been reported is the modules not comfortable with lower impedance loads. Gene over at Audioholics couldn't even put through a full bandwidth 4 ohm load into an SC-07 without the unit entering protect mode immediately. He suggested the smallish power supply and cap's as being the reason.

    I don't think LSi's can be driven by many Japanese receivers...

    When I had my Dynaudio Audience series setup all 4 ohm @88db , I ran the entire system off the SC-07 at reference for a full 2 hour movie and not a hint of strain or overheating. I never once got it to clip which when I first got it I thought that was going to be the case. I never intended on using the ICE amps as I was at the time replacing a preamp with this receiver. I liked it that much I was willing to use it as a preamp until I could find a pre I really liked. I also owned a Rotel RMB1095 which ran 330 @ 4ohms and I removed it after all my testing with the Pioneer Elite Sc-07. I sold the amp and the SC-07 is still here powering my system.

    This post is the main reason I decided to purchase a sc-05. Do I really need an amp for 4 LSI15's?

    Yes!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • boston1450
    boston1450 Posts: 7,474
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    Sell 1 pair & that will help fund a decent amplifier & enjoy the LSi15 speakers. Not worth the chance of damaging speakers, receiver or your hearing. Have you tried the receiver & 1 pair of speakers yet ? You may find it sounds pretty darn good. At moderate volume you should be fine till you get a amplifier. Not sure how old you are but the last thing you need to do is hurt your ears & pay for it later in life
    ..
    ..
    ..
    Randy/Maine
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