Good Grief...what have I done! Man oh man I've opened a can of worms with this one.
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I read that thread right up to the point to where sales (RA) is a leading marker for performance. I had to stop there.
Do these people even listen?
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Ralph also says that if your equipment follows the aes 48 balanced standard that cables don't make a difference, even though quite a few people who own his gear have said they hear a difference with better cables. He is in sales mode.
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I use a Boxem class D for my office rig and it sounds really good in that use.
I tried a larger Boxem Class D amp on the big rig and it just.... it just doesnt sound anywhere close...to a class a/ab amp or a tube amp in any capacity- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
They have their place. No doubt.
That said...
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The above Steve Hoffman link had interesting discussion of Class D amplification, which seems to stir controversy like few other topics. Keeping in mind that my rig is modest at best, here goes. My D-Sonic monos sound very nice, and I'm a big fan of the tube rig sound. Dennis Deacon, the D-Sonic designer, did a great job with his design (he uses Pascal modules). I gather some other Class D designs don't measure up. I've been around live music, both performing and listening most of my life and I hear little lacking in well-designed, latest generation Class D. It's a different presentation in very subtle ways relative to tube and Class A/B. It's difficult to describe. The sound is extremely neutral, coming from a "deep space" quiet background and is lacking the pleasing harmonics that one may hear with tubes and A/B (the question is: are those harmonics real or added?). However, they are monsters in regard to power (load handling), realism, attack, dynamics, layering in space of instruments and voice, and iron fist control of prodigious low bass. Some folks on the Hoffman forum mentioned a thin sound(?). I get none of that. I hear no "digititis", glare, or harshness some folks reported in earlier Class D offerings. Add the appealing facts that they are energy efficient, small and light, do not get hot, and are relative affordable. I do think it is very important to pair them with a good preamp, and they benefit from isolation, clean power and firehose power cables. That all said, I understand the allure of tube harmonics etc. It's sort of like how one fine bourbon appeals more to your sensibilities than the other fine bourbon that your friend prefers...
Polk Audio first generation RTA-12s; 12 inch Polk Stands; DHS Speaker Service upgraded crossovers w/ Sonicap/Mills; the "westmassguy anti-lobing mod" (hyperdamped outer drivers/mirror imaged); tweeter anti-diffraction mod; Cardas binding posts; Neotech UPOCC internal wire; foam-lined inner driver baskets; xschop phase plugs; deleted fuses; Hurricane nuts; Sonic Barrier; Dynamat XtremeAyre K-5xeMP preamplifierCambridge Audio 840C CD player; Herbie's Audio Lab Super Black Hole CD MatD-Sonic Custom Audio M3a-600M monoblock amplifiersNAD 4155 FM/AM tunerSilnote Audio Morpheus Reference II Series II balanced interconnects; Virtue Audio single-ended interconnectsKimber 12TC speaker cable w/Furez connectors; VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables w/Furutech connectorsHerbie's Audio Lab system isolation: Tenderfeet, Big Fat Dots, Grungebuster Dots, Little Fat GlidersDedicated 20A/10 AWG circuit; Furutech GTX-D (G) outlet; Furutech eTP80; Shunyata Research Venom Defender; Synergistic Research Orange fuses -
I don't understand how the noise floor can be so high with some tube gear, if a tube phono preamp can be made to have a low noise floor then a preamp or DAC should be very silent.
It's all in the gain. I have found overall (not every time) that the older tubes (early-mid 50's) seem to be a tad nosier. The later tubes tend to have less noise. Also depends on the tube, 12AX7's are much higher gain than 12AU7.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I just thought it was strange that someone with his background in the tube field including several patented designs would turn his back so to speak with his bread and butter. His remarks on tube gear aren't exactly the most flattering.
To those in the know is Class D really that good? I haven't heard one since the early days of it maybe 15 years ago and I wasn't impressed. No doubt things have changed a lot since then. His comment about the semi conductors that didn't exist 30 years ago but they do now is food for thought. -
motorstereo wrote: »I just thought it was strange that someone with his background in the tube field including several patented designs would turn his back so to speak with his bread and butter. His remarks on tube gear aren't exactly the most flattering.
To those in the know is Class D really that good? I haven't heard one since the early days of it maybe 15 years ago and I wasn't impressed. No doubt things have changed a lot since then. His comment about the semi conductors that didn't exist 30 years ago but they do now is food for thought.
A guy on audiogon bought a class D amp from Ralph and said it sounded very good, but he still liked his 300B set amp better. -
I did not read the entire Hoffman article. But I do agree with post #204 from that thread (page 9, I think)
Soo logical
"If money, space and temp didn't matter I'd have all tube gear. It's a myth that tube gear cant be accurate. It's also a myth that measurements trump other aspects of sound and it's a myth that well measuring gear always sounds better. Do we really want no distortion??? Electric guitar players thrive on distortion - how many great guitar amps are tube amps? In fact, I think the best systems are colored in a way that suits their owner. I personally own both tube and SS gear, but the best system I've ever had was an all tube system.
The real issue, is that most of us don't have audio shops. If we could all go listen to varied gear we wouldn't need to debate SS vs Tubes. We rely on the internet for info ... and it's skewed. Plus, you have the moronic ASR crowd boiling everything down to SINAD. We need to support local audio retailers or support online retailers that have generous return policies. I firmly believe that perfectly measuring gear is not what we really want and pleasing sound is often had with tube gear (though SS is a lot more convenient)."
AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampizator Baltic 4 DAC
Pre Cary SLP-05
Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
Mains Salk HT2-TL
Rythmik F12 -
Speaking of tubes, I see Tung-Sol upped the game once again with a KT170 power tube.
Wow 85 watts of power from each tube. I couldn't imagine what Bob Carvers silver seven could with a set of KT170's, yikes you would need some serious cables coming into your panel.
😁
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Speaking of tubes, I see Tung-Sol upped the game once again with a KT170 power tube.
Wow 85 watts of power from each tube. I couldn't imagine what Bob Carvers silver seven could with a set of KT170's, yikes you would need some serious cables coming into your panel.
😁
It would definitely be a cold weather amplifier. I'm still waiting for someone to build a push pull amplifier using gm100 tubes, 150 watts from each tube and almost 2kv on the plate. -
Class D ?
What’s not to love ?
If ya don’t like the way it looks , you can get it in nicer casework , or mono/dual mono versions .
Class D is the future.
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/apollon-ncx500st-stereo-amplifier-review.47701/
Bk
Dayens Ampino , Yamaha wxc-50 , Polk SDA 1c’s ( my first love .. ) , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN RIG
PS Audio S300 - sitting in the closet for now …
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO -
And then there's the fact that everyone's perception of great varies with your ears ability to transform sound to a unique brain and what those two, combined, considers pleasant. Some prefer an accurate, crisp, ear piercing clarity. Others prefer a more warm, smooth, syrupy sound or something in between the two.Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus -
With a couple newer exceptions class D is terrible to listen to.
Warm and smooth don't equate to syrupy.
An amp can be crisp, accurate and have tons of clarity, be smooth and have a hint of warmth, transparency, etc.
I am at the stage in the hobby when gear has to move me emotionally, which allows greater involvement in the music which allows hours and hours more enjoyment. I am pretty much there but still need a few tweaks.
The XA-25 is the final piece of the puzzle for me. It is a stunning amplifier. It draws you into the recording like no other piece of gear I've heard, timbre, tonality, 3D imaging, image palpability and density. Bass lines that can rock the foundation.
I let the tube pre (by rolling tubes) fine tune a few things. The L600's sound stunning with this combo, I am actually pretty in awe. My room sucks for fidelity, but holy crap does the XA-25 and L600's sound spectacular.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
"Never underestimate the power of a rectifier"
So, i have been testing out a set of Klipsch The Nines powered speakers. ( doesn't laugh, they actually sound better then I thought they would). Using my Innuos usb out to the Nines internal Dac sounds ok but, to my ears, looses some body. The Innuos going to the Boarder Patrol se-i that has a tube rectifier adds quite of musicality or soul back vs the Nines internal dac. Yes I know I am using more money's worth of streaming gear then the Nines cost, ( SBOOSTER power supply to the router, EtherREGEN, TeraDak to power the EtherREGEN, RAL umbilical to the EtherREGEN, RAL Ethernet cable and USB cable to the Boarder Patrol se-i) but the Nines actually let the sound of the better streaming setup shine though vs it's internal dac.
On my main rig, yes the Tri-Vista has a tube in it but, if I turn the tube off on the BoarderPatrol dac, I can hear the difference. It looses something that I just cannot put into words to describe. It's just better with it engaged.
All that said, I have heard systems without tubes that I wasn't missing a tube like Norma but, it seems thoes are more one off vs the majority.Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's. -
Going back to an earlier post... my reference for music is my almost one decade of working in a music store and being around musical instruments day in and out.
The HIFI sound of the last twenty years sounds absolutely nothing like an instrument sounds in real life. Not even in the ballpark in my opinion. To me, it as if a computer analyzed what an instrument was supposed to sound like, and it spit out its own version of it. Instruments have natural distortions, decays, etc. that sometimes get lost in the recording. You talk to any musician, they are usually seeking a certain tone or something in their instruments that are usually found on really worn in instruments or instruments that are very old that have aged. From a recording engineer perspective it is very hard to translate that to a finished product.
Tubes almost put what's lost back. Sounds strange but that's what tubes are to me. It captures the essence, the soul of the instrument and singer that is lost in the recording process, I cant tell you how it does it, but it just has that sound that makes music...music.
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
A recording is never going to be the same as the live event. The recording process has flaws too, just like the playback and playback room.
I am a believer in tubes, I will probably always run them. I like the nostalgia, glow and warmth (in addition to how they perform) But there are SS designs that give 97% of the tube sound.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
What doesn’t make sense to me is how much the industry has tried to make tubes sound like solid-state and vice-versa; almost as if trying to make them indistinguishable.
Why not cooperate with the innate sonic characteristics each technology offers naturally?
I like the warm, syrupy, colorful tubey sounds sometimes. Other times I want the neutrality that solid-state offers.
Preserving these differences would enhance the hobby, imo.CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables. -
What doesn’t make sense to me is how much the industry has tried to make tubes sound like solid-state and vice-versa; almost as if trying to make them indistinguishable.
Why not cooperate with the innate sonic characteristics each technology offers naturally?
I like the warm, syrupy, colorful tubey sounds sometimes. Other times I want the neutrality that solid-state offers.
Preserving these differences would enhance the hobby, imo.
Tell that to some of the greatest artist of blues and jazz. SRV has so many amps tuned for style and attitude for his guitars it would make your head spin....
Plus the guitars....OMG lets not get started
Merry Christmas @jbreezy5
Just things that make you go HMMMM!!!2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
txcoastal1 wrote: »What doesn’t make sense to me is how much the industry has tried to make tubes sound like solid-state and vice-versa; almost as if trying to make them indistinguishable.
Why not cooperate with the innate sonic characteristics each technology offers naturally?
I like the warm, syrupy, colorful tubey sounds sometimes. Other times I want the neutrality that solid-state offers.
Preserving these differences would enhance the hobby, imo.
Tell that to some of the greatest artist of blues and jazz. SRV has so many amps tuned for style and attitude for his guitars it would make your head spin....
Plus the guitars....OMG lets not get started
Merry Christmas @jbreezy5
Just things that make you go HMMMM!!!
Late Merry Christmas @ txcoastal1CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables. -
What doesn’t make sense to me is how much the industry has tried to make tubes sound like solid-state and vice-versa; almost as if trying to make them indistinguishable.
Why not cooperate with the innate sonic characteristics each technology offers naturally?
I like the warm, syrupy, colorful tubey sounds sometimes. Other times I want the neutrality that solid-state offers.
Preserving these differences would enhance the hobby, imo.
What do you mean? Old stock tubes knew nothing about transistors as they hadn't been invented. I listen to Old stock tubes and they are not overly warm or syrupy.
So you must be talking about today's manufactured tubes, which I'm not sure they are intentionally making to sound like SS, it's just that the old methods of tube making and the materials are no longer able to be done or found. So, there is no way to really "recreate" the tube sound of the past.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
What doesn’t make sense to me is how much the industry has tried to make tubes sound like solid-state and vice-versa; almost as if trying to make them indistinguishable.
Why not cooperate with the innate sonic characteristics each technology offers naturally?
I like the warm, syrupy, colorful tubey sounds sometimes. Other times I want the neutrality that solid-state offers.
Preserving these differences would enhance the hobby, imo.
What do you mean? Old stock tubes knew nothing about transistors as they hadn't been invented. I listen to Old stock tubes and they are not overly warm or syrupy.
So you must be talking about today's manufactured tubes, which I'm not sure they are intentionally making to sound like SS, it's just that the old methods of tube making and the materials are no longer able to be done or found. So, there is no way to really "recreate" the tube sound of the past.
H9
I’m not claiming the tubes themselves have different sonic characteristics than they ever did.
Modern tube designs (amplification circuits, whether pre or power amp circuits) have been aimed to sound more like solid-state.
This isn’t a new claim I’m making. Many professional reviewers have discussed this since the early 2000s. They claim modern tube designs sound less tubey, syrupy, fat, etc. than old tube amp designs.
That is entirely possible.CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables. -
I have ran some newer tube gear... Musical paradise? I think it was. It truly sounded nothing like tubes. I've experienced some other newer gear with tubes and again very little tube sound.
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Only the ones made before 1948
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In all (well... some) seriousness, the earliest well-known commercial solid state hifi component was a Fisher phono preamp, announced in 1956.
source: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/50s/Audio-1956-May.pdf pg. 68 of the magazine
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You could say vacuum tubes are a more linear conductor than Solid (or is it soiled as doc hardy says?
) State so they can maintain signal integrity better than transistors. Then again, components and the circuit matter.
I fondly remember Paul Grzybek of Bizzy Bee Audio (RIP). He was local to me. He would buy these nice-looking Chinese tube amps that sounded poorly to some. Paul swapped a few components with some circuit changes and transformed them into nice sounding gear.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Nothing is permanent.
I just re-arranged my configuration tonight.
I bounce from from Classé sigma pre/amp, to just a Sonos amp, to a Sonos port + rotel dac and amp combo. Last year I was using vintage McIntosh stuff.
It’s fun and all setups have something unique to play with.
Just setup your system to fit your mood.
B&W CM9Classé Sigma
