Hana Phono Cartridges?

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  • Keiko
    Keiko Posts: 764
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    Scott, just a heads-up. When I bought my Goldring 1012GX, I decided on this headshell by Audio Technica. I have several of these and my Denon DL160 is also mounted on this headshell. I've found them to be every bit as good as the Technics OEM headshells that go for crazy money these days.

    https://www.dacapoaudio.com/4701-audio-technica-at-hs1p-headshell.html

    The one headshell that I'd really like to try is the Korf ceramic headshell we've discussed before. Whenever I get some disposable cash I'd like to invest in one of them to experiment around with.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
    edited December 2023
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    CottageChz wrote: »
    msg wrote: »
    Did you tell them about me, who I am, and that I'm in a rush for this information? That ought to light a fire under them.
    I'll make sure to let them know :D

    I see that you own a Technics - I will be putting this on an SL-1200 Mk2. Mine is unmodded, but original RCA was replaced because the old one had a bad connection. I wish they put external RCA connections on all of these instead of having the attached RCA cable, what a bad design.

    @CottageChz - Dangit. Dude, this is now the third time I've tried to respond to this. First time was last weekend, and I'd fat-fingered something and reloaded the damn tab. Busy week, so I'm just now getting back around to this. Just earlier, my tab suspension extension put the tab to sleep while I was off capturing some info for the response. sob. lol

    Short version!
    My tables are unmodded, too. I have a 1200MK5 and a 1210MK2 (the 10 denoting the color; black). Do you know what your production year is? The reason I ask, is that I was disappointed at first with the captive cable on the 1200 series, but later learned that it's supposed to be pretty decent. It was so long ago that I forget the specifics. Anyway, there was a brief period where the cable Panasonic/Technics were using was of much higher capacitance, and would be problematic for high output cartridges, most likely imparting "exaggerated surface noise and sibilance".

    I forget whether it was Kevin or possibly a post or discussion with @mhardy6647 re: this situation and the cable, but I decided that terminal box conversion was one I could put off. I did pick up a nice set of phono cables from @skipshot12 a year or two ago, and would like to try them one day, so I'd need to convert for that.

    You know about kabusa.com, right? Bunch of great mods available. There are a few I'd like to try, like rewiring the tonearm with better wires and the internal rubber sleeve. I think there's some stuff for the spindle/motor/bearing-thing I'd like to do, or at least have.

    One of the tables needs the hinge kit.

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
    edited December 2023
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    CottageChz wrote: »
    Don’t have it yet! I know they placed the order on Saturday, but they said the shop owner is out of town for the week or something. Not really sure why that’s relevant, but I told them I wasn’t in a huge rush, so I’m thinking I’ll be hearing from them early next week.
    Did you get your new cart yet?!?

    I couldn't wait any longer. I busted open the piggy bank and splurged for the ML. I hate myself. You had me wanting to go with the EL as well. The only reason I went ML is because I've been exploring all these other refinements. Sound wise, I bet the line-up has a very similar sound, looking at the specs. I really like the sound of my Denon DL-301 (v1) and wasn't really looking to get a new cart. To make this worthwhile and not just be collecting similar carts, I had to make a jump, which put me into the ML.

    I just received it today from Hifi Haven. I must say, I'm not particularly enthused with the gold trim, and almost went SL because of it that. The reasons I went ML were:
    • Delrin body (bonus?)
    • Microline nude stylus (I've never had a microline stylus before, nor a nude stylus) (mostly for this)
    • Cryo treatment (bonus?)

    The cantilever and magnetic circuits are the same for ML, SL, EL.
    The Coil has some spec differences, but I don't know how they affect performance.

    One thing that was a bit of a bummer was not getting the boron cantilever with the ML. You need to jump to the Umami Blue or Red for that - $2500 and $3500, respectively. Way out of my league.

    From @Keiko sharing and strong recommendations for shopping with DaCapo, I discovered that there's a JICO stylus upgrade for the Shure M97xE that comes with some variant of microline/shibata diamond, and a boron cantilever for $282. Two things weird about this - that seems cheap for boron and microline/shibata (still not quite sure of the differences; need to read more, but JICO's SAS is described similarly as microline is - that it closely resembles that of the cutting stylus in creating the master disc.) and, it's about 3x the cost of the Shure M97xE when it was new. It was my first cartridge. It's a ugly mug, but I remember it sounding really smooth and forgiving on my crappy, dirty records when I first got back into this. The second time. I'd like to remount it and give it another shot to see how it compares to other stuff now.

    As I've been exploring some refinements like record stabilization with the Wayne's Audio edge ring and center clamp/weight, I started looking at some other areas I could refine further. These would be things like the cartridge body, cantilever stiffness, and stylus shape. Also other places I can stabilize or damp, right down to headshells and cartridge mounting hardware.

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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,196
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    @msg
    Scott was not kidding when he said he was diving into a vinyl obsession.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,352
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    msg wrote: »



    You know about kabusa.com, right? Bunch of great mods available. There are a few I'd like to try, like rewiring the tonearm with better wires and the internal rubber sleeve.


    I've used and really like KAB SuperFlex Litz Copper Tonearm Wire.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,348
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    Has anyone tried the Hana Umami Blue yet? I just ran across this article about it, comparing it at one point, to their flagship Red cartridge. It looks like while the price is on different levels, the playback performance boils down to different flavors.

    https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/hana-umami-blue-phono-cartridge/

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,348
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    Just ran across another review of the Blue...

    https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/hana-umami-blue-moving-coil-cartridge/

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • CottageChz
    CottageChz Posts: 366
    edited December 2023
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    msg wrote: »
    Did you get your new cart yet?!?

    I couldn't wait any longer. I busted open the piggy bank and splurged for the ML.

    Nice!! Very interested to hear your thoughts on the ML.

    No word on the EL yet, I’ve been very busy with work and life so I haven’t followed up with my dealer. If I haven’t heard anything towards the end of this week I will definitely be calling; I have a bit of time off at the end of the month and want to be able to listen with the new cart then.

    I ordered a new Technics headshell today to mount the EL on. Figured it’s worth it so that I can swap with the 2M Blue or another future cartridge easily if I want to. Also thinking about getting a Herbies mat at the stock 6 mm thickness. (Anyone here have experience with it?) My current mat is way thinner than that and probably doesn’t provide much in the way of damping.

    Definitely interested to hear feedback on the ML and Umami blue that others have been posting about. Based on prices, neither are a cartridge I would consider buying currently, but fun to hear others’ experiences all the same.
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  • newbie308
    newbie308 Posts: 675
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    I tried a lot of different mats. Silicone, leather, cork, glass, Delrin, felt, copper, and the one in the link below. It made a noticeable difference (improvement) in the amount of detail delivered.

    https://soundeck.bigcartel.com/product/soundeck-aluminium-black
    Sources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp |
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  • CottageChz
    CottageChz Posts: 366
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    Thank you @newbie308 I will take a look
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    What’s your platter composition
    newbie308 wrote: »
    I tried a lot of different mats. Silicone, leather, cork, glass, Delrin, felt, copper, and the one in the link below. It made a noticeable difference (improvement) in the amount of detail delivered.

    https://soundeck.bigcartel.com/product/soundeck-aluminium-black

    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • newbie308
    newbie308 Posts: 675
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    @Joey_V I have a Technics 1200mkii so its a steel platter.
    Sources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp |
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  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,004
    edited December 2023
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    The stock 1200 platters are cast aluminum...as are almost all metal platters. I think steel is too heavy, and of course it is ferrous, potentially causing issues with magnetism.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
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  • newbie308
    newbie308 Posts: 675
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    997nmhsvpsu0.jpg
    All this time I thought the center was steel because of the black paint. I just checked it with a magnet and, I'll be darned, it's non magnetic. That does make sense! Thanks for enlightening me! The soundeck mat is two layers of powder coated aluminum with a layer of sorbothane rubber inside. Before I started using it, my favorite was the cork mat. If you decide to try different mat materials, I'd like to hear your impressions. I found that silicone, felt, and leather sucked the details out of the music.
    Sources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp |
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  • CottageChz
    CottageChz Posts: 366
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    Will do. I will say that one of the things that was attractive about the Herbies to me is that you can customize the thickness so that it matches the original mat, and thus would not affect VTA adjustments. Perhaps I’ll look into the return policies of your recommendation and the Herbies to see if I can compare them and keep the one I like. In any case, I want to wait until I get the new cartridge to be able to test this.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    ChzOfTheCottage!!! Where you at?!?

    Have you received your new EL yet? I've been working too much lately and haven't had a chance to get mine installed.

    Additional info for everyone - I've learned that Hana, since their carts cannot be rebuilt, offers a "generous allowance" on trade-ins, either before or at end of life. The Hana rep tells me that this is extended to all dealers so that the benefit to customers should be relatively the same no matter who your dealer is.

    I'm still trying to get a figure. And also a relative estimate on life expectancy.

    I read on one thread the other day about a guy whose kid got into his system and snapped the stylus off his cart. I don't quite recall, but it was either a new cart for 60% cost of new, or 40% off, or 60% toward new. I'm thinking it was the former; 40% off.

    Also talking to Hifi Heaven, which was where I got my ML. They recommended STYLAST. You guys ever used this? Advertised to extend stylus life by 10x. They make a big deal of saying it's not a lubricant and leaves no film on records. I've never used it.
    https://hifiheaven.net/product/last-factory-stylast-stylus-treatment/
    szjzcly2h94h.png

    Shooting to have mine installed sometime this weekend.
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    You said tonight, you slacker!

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • maxward
    maxward Posts: 1,522
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    I have used Stylast for decades (mid-1980s?). I can’t say exactly how well it works, but I still have my cartridge from around then. It was retipped in 2013.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    Interesting! Which cart, and what did you think of the retip? Was there a noticeable difference?

    I've heard great things about these services, but the purist/skeptic in me gets squinty eyes.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,608
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    I think some manufacturers have guidelines for this type of thing. IIRC Ortofon says do not use any sort of product like this.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    Interesting. I don't remember what it was, specifically, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that [liquid something or other] could weaken the diamond to cantilever bond. I don't know if it was alcohol, water, or what.

    I suppose it would be best to contact the manufacturer directly to see what they say. Or @SCompRacer or @jdjohn
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  • CottageChz
    CottageChz Posts: 366
    edited December 2023
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    msg wrote: »
    ChzOfTheCottage!!! Where you at?!?

    Have you received your new EL yet? I've been working too much lately and haven't had a chance to get mine installed.

    Here I am! And I have the EL! The guy at the dealer forgot to call me when it came in. Dohhh

    Waiting on my slipmat, due to arrive on Tuesday, then I will be mounting it probably on Friday!
    sd9mu39yrnuv.jpeg
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    Nice!

    Wait, NEXT Friday?!? #$%* man...

    Sez me, also slacking... I should be doing mine this eve, but...
    (Note: The time here is currently 7:33pm)
    wa0517usb9gu.png
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  • maxward
    maxward Posts: 1,522
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    My old cartridge is a Sumiko Talisman S. $300 in the ‘80s. I sent it to Soundsmith in 2013 for a retipping, which by then was around $350 for the ruby cantilever. I’m still liking what I hear, but I just turned 73.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    CottageChz wrote: »
    msg wrote: »
    ChzOfTheCottage!!! Where you at?!?
    Have you received your new EL yet? I've been working too much lately and haven't had a chance to get mine installed.
    Here I am! And I have the EL! The guy at the dealer forgot to call me when it came in. Dohhh
    Waiting on my slipmat, due to arrive on Tuesday, then I will be mounting it probably on Friday!
    paa6eh6dfdn1.png
    Woohoo! Look at all the fun stuff! You're way ahead of me and all set to go! I unboxed my Hana just to take a quick peek when it first arrived, looked around surreptitiously, and repacked it. A subtle, guttural "muhahaa" may have escaped. Not a full on "muhahahahaa", because, I mean, it's not world domination.

    Which mat did you order? Wasn't sure which you settled on. A few neat ones mentioned here.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,466
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    maxward wrote: »
    My old cartridge is a Sumiko Talisman S. $300 in the ‘80s. I sent it to Soundsmith in 2013 for a retipping, which by then was around $350 for the ruby cantilever. I’m still liking what I hear, but I just turned 73.
    Good stuff! I keep hearing good things about Soundsmith. I didn't realize how affordable that service was. People swear by performance gains from materials upgrades with retipping. I'm curious, for sure. At worst, it sure beats a total loss when a cart's done in.

    All I can say so far in my limited experience is that I'm a fan of the smooth, not hyper-highs-detailed carts. My only experience there so far was the Grado Prestige Green, but take that with a grain, because my system needed other work at the time. I just remember that the Shure M97xE was more rounded and pleasing back then. Also worth noting is that my turntable performance, sound wise, was pretty crappy. Crammed center image, and that's about it. It was maybe 3ft wide, and compressed/flat sounding. Very weak.

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  • CottageChz
    CottageChz Posts: 366
    edited December 2023
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    msg wrote: »
    Woohoo! Look at all the fun stuff! You're way ahead of me and all set to go! I unboxed my Hana just to take a quick peek when it first arrived, looked around surreptitiously, and repacked it. A subtle, guttural "muhahaa" may have escaped. Not a full on "muhahahahaa", because, I mean, it's not world domination.

    Which mat did you order? Wasn't sure which you settled on. A few neat ones mentioned here.

    Hahah cracking up at the evil laugh

    Realized I missed a few of your posts in here. I'm not sure on the year of manufacture of my table. I will look around for a label when I am installing the cartridge.

    I did see KabUSA a while ago, I need to check that out again at some point.

    The RCA on my table was replaced with what appears to be a pretty thick Monster cable (if memory serves). I had the guys at Pittsburgh Vintage Hifi (now closed) replace it for me. I know a couple Polkies used to kick around on their forums, which still exist, but are very quiet these days.

    I ended up ordering the Herbies Way Excellent II mat. Some people on here said they liked it, but another big factor for me was that it is available in 6mm thick. That was apparently the thickness of the original mat for this turntable, and tonearm height/VTA should be slightly more straightforward with the matching thickness. A lot of mats are thinner and I think might necessitate spacers for mounting the cartridge, which I didn't want to get into right now (maybe there's another option, stacking mats or something else, I don't know). Trying to keep it kinda simple at the moment.

    I'd think that ML of yours has to sound pretty sweet - it should for the price, anyway! When are you going to get it set up?

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  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,004
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    Re-tipping is a very viable option, and considered quite normal and safe, especially for higher-end MC carts. The magnets and coils don't wear-out, so it's really just the diamond tip and suspension that require servicing. There are (literally) only a handful of people I would trust with this, and only a couple of them are located here in the states. One of the absolute best is a guy in Russia, but sadly, he has been off-limits awhile now :(

    I don't have any personal experience with Stylast, but it seems like it would wear-off the tip after only a few revolutions, which makes me question the true effectiveness. To claim that it extends the life of a stylus 10X is quite bold. Regarding weakening the diamond bond, I think the stylus would have to soak in a solvent for quite a long time to have a detrimental effect. Since solvents evaporate quickly, I can't imagine a light brushing causing any harm...assuming the stylus is not already compromised by trauma or poor construction. The best way to extend stylus life is to have clean records.
    CottageChz wrote: »
    Waiting on my slipmat, due to arrive on Tuesday, then I will be mounting it probably on Friday!
    I hope you don't truly mean a 'slipmat', for like DJ scratching :'( Maybe just a 'platter mat'?
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,053
    edited December 2023
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    I'm figurin' that youse guyses either have far more disposable income than I...
    or you've already sold one kidney and are just hopin' and prayin' that the remaining one will hold up to the finish line.
    B)
    :#
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  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,004
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    Yeah, I noticed that Stylast is $47/bottle, so I'd like a little more empirical evidence before purchasing.
    The AT607a (which is just a cleaner, not a conditioner like Stylast) at $15 is much more palatable for me. And even with it, I only use it for the occasional 'wet' clean, when a dry brush is not getting the job done. I also incorporate isopropyl alcohol in some instances.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
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