Turntables, MM MC etc
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mantis
Posts: 17,059
Hello everyone,
I gotta be honest, I never really thought getting into Records was a good idea. I had a record player when I was 5 and had one into the 80's. Once I started using 8 tracks and then cassettes, I didn't see the need to spin records. Once CD came out, all that was gone.
Then Digital files and now streaming, it really doesn't make much sense, or does it?
So recently I picked up an Thorens T-170 Table. It's all factory stock as I just wanted to play around with the format myself. Sure I have setup tables, balanced the arm and set the need pressure but never really paid it much mind.
Like everything in this hobby, there are so many things you can get for a turntable. You can spend as little as a few hundred bucks or thousands on a setup PLUS you need a record brush, record cleaners , all that madness etc.
Anyway my Table's Cartridge is a MM. From what I learned as again , never paid any attention the MC cartridges are supposed to be better in general. So starting out with my table, listening to some records I picked up is kinda fun, sounds great but you can't pause, your can't rewind, you can't skip to the next song etc. All the other things that make digital music so much more enjoyable are gone with records. So you are locked into the 1 side of the record and if you don't like a song, you kinda gotta listen to it to get to the next one, unless you want to manually move the needle.
My table isn't a high end model or anything, it only retails for $699 and that's with the needle , everything you need to get started. But when you start looking at tables, the higher end models, man do they go right up in price and then if you go MC you need a phono preamp to match it. Then you gotta sort out all the MC needles, man so many it's overwhelming Then wiring for the arm and upgraded arms my god you can either go crazy or have to much fun.
I will say this, despite the recording quality and the record skipping, there is something analog about this experience I enjoy. I enjoy no digital o analog conversions. I enjoy pure analog signwave. sound. I can see myself digging my heels in , learning all about all this crazyness and starting a whole new to me way to enjoy our hobby. I think I'm gonna be real selective about what records I buy. So far I picked up a few James Taylor and Steely Dan records and I'm enjoying those. I don[t however see the need to start collecting, at least not now. I want to figure out where I want to go with this, learn about all the MM and MC , phono preamps, wiring , quality of tables , all the different brands that make all this madness and see where it takes me.
I enjoy mechanical things and this is a very basic format when it comes to it's parts.
I gotta be honest, I never really thought getting into Records was a good idea. I had a record player when I was 5 and had one into the 80's. Once I started using 8 tracks and then cassettes, I didn't see the need to spin records. Once CD came out, all that was gone.
Then Digital files and now streaming, it really doesn't make much sense, or does it?
So recently I picked up an Thorens T-170 Table. It's all factory stock as I just wanted to play around with the format myself. Sure I have setup tables, balanced the arm and set the need pressure but never really paid it much mind.
Like everything in this hobby, there are so many things you can get for a turntable. You can spend as little as a few hundred bucks or thousands on a setup PLUS you need a record brush, record cleaners , all that madness etc.
Anyway my Table's Cartridge is a MM. From what I learned as again , never paid any attention the MC cartridges are supposed to be better in general. So starting out with my table, listening to some records I picked up is kinda fun, sounds great but you can't pause, your can't rewind, you can't skip to the next song etc. All the other things that make digital music so much more enjoyable are gone with records. So you are locked into the 1 side of the record and if you don't like a song, you kinda gotta listen to it to get to the next one, unless you want to manually move the needle.
My table isn't a high end model or anything, it only retails for $699 and that's with the needle , everything you need to get started. But when you start looking at tables, the higher end models, man do they go right up in price and then if you go MC you need a phono preamp to match it. Then you gotta sort out all the MC needles, man so many it's overwhelming Then wiring for the arm and upgraded arms my god you can either go crazy or have to much fun.
I will say this, despite the recording quality and the record skipping, there is something analog about this experience I enjoy. I enjoy no digital o analog conversions. I enjoy pure analog signwave. sound. I can see myself digging my heels in , learning all about all this crazyness and starting a whole new to me way to enjoy our hobby. I think I'm gonna be real selective about what records I buy. So far I picked up a few James Taylor and Steely Dan records and I'm enjoying those. I don[t however see the need to start collecting, at least not now. I want to figure out where I want to go with this, learn about all the MM and MC , phono preamps, wiring , quality of tables , all the different brands that make all this madness and see where it takes me.
I enjoy mechanical things and this is a very basic format when it comes to it's parts.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Comments
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There are many excellent moving magnet cartridges available. The thing with turntable systems is there is always something that can be added on or upgraded but for many people a $500 turntable and cartridge will be all they ever really need to enjoy their LPs.
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There are two flavors of "MM" cartridges -- the (true) moving magnet cartridges, and a variant usually referred to nowadays as moving iron (or "Variable Reluctance" at the dawn of the stereo era, as in the justly famous GE VR cartridges). The latter design was and AFAIK still is used exclusively by Grado*, by bang & olufsen, who called the configuration "Micro Moving Cross" (MMC), and also by Shure and Stanton/Pickering on some (relatively few) models.
FWIW, in terms of "Moving Magnet" cartridges, my preference runs hard in favor of MI types. To my ears and taste, MI cartridges tend to capture the flesh and blood robustness of music better than MM designs -- but, of course, I havent heard every example of every "magnetic" cartridge ever made. The lower moving mass of the little bit of iron at the transducer end of the stylus cantilever, rather than a relatively heavy magnet, may be why.
Moving coil cartridges, perhaps also because of less mass at the end of the stylus cantilever (the coil is miniscule) get that sound/experience very "right", too. The cost is higher, though, (often much higher) and the output is generally lower (requiring a step-up transformer or a very high gain phono preamp/EQ). The high output MC cartridges I've heard don't do it for me. One nice plus for MC cartridges is that they don't care about load capacitance, only resistance. Of course, virtually all MC cartridges have non-user-replaceable styli, which is a bit of an inconvenience/expense relative to most MM/MI designs.
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* Joe Grado, rather famously, invented (and patented) the stereo MC cartridge, and made them for a while in the early days of stereo -- but he quickly and completely abandoned them for MI cartridges (and a few piezoelectrics, in full disclosure, too). I actually have one of the Grado piezo ("ceramic") cartridges. It sounds quite good, but they're quite finicky.
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What an interesting point of view. You aren't wrong about the inconvenience of spinning records. I happen to enjoy the process almost as much as I enjoy the music. That is, I enjoy dialing in a new cartridge and hearing the subtle differences when comparing it to another and hearing certain details for the first time because of the stylus shape. I enjoy shopping for and cleaning records before sorting them into my collection. I enjoy studying the cover art as I listen. I'd have to say that my least favorite part about playing records is the run out groove blues. That is, trying to make it across the room to lift the needle before you run out of run out. There are devices that lift the arm for you, but I have yet to find one that can fit the narrow space between the armboad and platter on my SL1200.
In regards to the plethora of cartridge, stylus, and preamp options. The same can be said about picking a CD transport and DAC. When I finally decided to dip my toe in the digital world, I was overwhelmed by the whole selection process. Fortunately, this forum has a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help you spend your money wisely.Sources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp | -
I have heard from literally everyone I know who is into records say that MC is the better design and usually has way more detail in the top end. For me I never ever did any comparisons between the 2 other than an old B&O table vs a high end VPI table and I actually liked the B&O table's sound better with the same exact record on the same exact system with the same exact Phono preamp that supported 2 tables at once which is strange but whatever right?mhardy6647 wrote: »There are two flavors of "MM" cartridges -- the (true) moving magnet cartridges, and a variant usually referred to nowadays as moving iron (or "Variable Reluctance" at the dawn of the stereo era, as in the justly famous GE VR cartridges). The latter design was and AFAIK still is used exclusively by Grado*, by bang & olufsen, who called the configuration "Micro Moving Cross" (MMC), and also by Shure and Stanton/Pickering on some (relatively few) models.
FWIW, in terms of "Moving Magnet" cartridges, my preference runs hard in favor of MI types. To my ears and taste, MI cartridges tend to capture the flesh and blood robustness of music better than MM designs -- but, of course, I havent heard every example of every "magnetic" cartridge ever made. The lower moving mass of the little bit of iron at the transducer end of the stylus cantilever, rather than a relatively heavy magnet, may be why.
Moving coil cartridges, perhaps also because of less mass at the end of the stylus cantilever (the coil is miniscule) get that sound/experience very "right", too. The cost is higher, though, (often much higher) and the output is generally lower (requiring a step-up transformer or a very high gain phono preamp/EQ). The high output MC cartridges I've heard don't do it for me. One nice plus for MC cartridges is that they don't care about load capacitance, only resistance. Of course, virtually all MC cartridges have non-user-replaceable styli, which is a bit of an inconvenience/expense relative to most MM/MI designs.
_______________
* Joe Grado, rather famously, invented (and patented) the stereo MC cartridge, and made them for a while in the early days of stereo -- but he quickly and completely abandoned them for MI cartridges (and a few piezoelectrics, in full disclosure, too). I actually have one of the Grado piezo ("ceramic") cartridges. It sounds quite good, but they're quite finicky.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
What an interesting point of view. You aren't wrong about the inconvenience of spinning records. I happen to enjoy the process almost as much as I enjoy the music. That is, I enjoy dialing in a new cartridge and hearing the subtle differences when comparing it to another and hearing certain details for the first time because of the stylus shape. I enjoy shopping for and cleaning records before sorting them into my collection. I enjoy studying the cover art as I listen. I'd have to say that my least favorite part about playing records is the run out groove blues. That is, trying to make it across the room to lift the needle before you run out of run out. There are devices that lift the arm for you, but I have yet to find one that can fit the narrow space between the armboad and platter on my SL1200.
In regards to the plethora of cartridge, stylus, and preamp options. The same can be said about picking a CD transport and DAC. When I finally decided to dip my toe in the digital world, I was overwhelmed by the whole selection process. Fortunately, this forum has a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help you spend your money wisely.
I get what your saying, for me I think CD and any digital format is a cake walk. You don't need a DAC with most streamers or CD players as they usually have them built in and most of them have some good DAC"s in them. Even if not and you have a transport, many Preamp and higher end receivers have excellent quality DAC's in them so your pretty covered there.
With Phono, not every preamp or AVR has a Phono preamp and most of them are only MM so if you have a MC , you have to get an external Phono preamp that supports MC. That's where the world of oh my god so many choices is to me madness. It's because I haven't paid any attention to this side of the hobby other than having to be Able to setup tables and systems with Phono as it's my job.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
It’s a slippery slope and I enjoy it because I find the sound of high end analog to markedly eclipse that of digital. I also enjoy the collecting aspect as well.
Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
I can see this becoming an issue. Especially the Sonic cleaners with the microscope etc. They have digital pressure meters for setting up the needle pressure etc. There are way to many cool toys to play with.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Could you please elaborate and/or provide links? I would recommend waiting in any purchases on this regard until getting further input.Especially the Sonic cleaners with the microscope etc. They have digital pressure meters for setting up the needle pressure etc."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Yeah, Dan, take it easy.
Or just forget you ever thought of trying this and get out. Now. While you still can.
I disabled signatures. -
Here you go.
https://nirvanasound.com/wally-tools/
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/accessories/analog-accessories/flux-hifi-ultrasonic-electronic-stylus-cleaner/
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/accessories/analog-accessories/audio-additives-digital-stylus-force-gauge/Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Yeah, Dan, take it easy.
Or just forget you ever thought of trying this and get out. Now. While you still can.
Believe me, I thought about running far away from this as it's to much work just to listen to a song. But there is something about it, mechanical , simple , retro that's attractive.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I dunno about MC being superior to MM cartridges. I've found some darn fine sounding moving magnet carts and am currently enjoying my new Goldring a hella lot. I've heard it also that MC are better, but it's like I always say, it's subjective.
One thing about moving coils, you can't replace the stylus like you can with moving magnets. MCs need to be sent off for retipping which IMO give MM that advantage. I own both, 8 different cartridges now in total and find both MM/MC to sound good. Flavah of the Day, Dan.
My advice is for you to play around with some different carts, experiment and see for yourself. I took a cheapo, Audio Technica AT-91R, did a RigB mod to it. Fitted an Analogis, nude elliptical black diamond to it and made a $30.00 cartridge sing like a $300.00 cartridge. Even the cheapest of AT cartridges sound decent IMO. The AT-3600L is actually the same cartridge as the Rega Carbon. I bought a 3600L for 16 bucks and was pleasantly surprised at how good this cheap little cartridge sounded.
That's my .02ç for the day. Main thing is just to have fun with it and keep spinning them records.
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I am surprised that nobody's mentioned one of the top reasons to go vinyl. Records provide a whole new dimension in on-the-go entertainment, and a quantum leap in driver distraction.
Many people much cooler than any of us have taken the plunge. Who's next?
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Be very careful, and don't waste your money. Check out these two stylus brushes:
https://www.amazon.com/Clearaudio-DIAMOND-STYLUS-BRUSH/dp/B003JUE2R0/ref=sr_1_13?crid=2Y1DDNE1OUWWI&keywords=stylus+brush&qid=1680876637&sprefix=stylus+brush,aps,118&sr=8-13
https://www.amazon.com/GEAR-Ultimate-Diamond-Stylus-Brush/dp/B00TNFOILK/ref=sr_1_21?crid=2Y1DDNE1OUWWI&keywords=stylus+brush&qid=1680876637&sprefix=stylus+brush,aps,118&sr=8-21
They are identical, yet $20 different in price.
Same with this digital scale vs the one from Music Direct ($13 compared to $55):
https://www.amazon.com/DIGITNOW-Precise-Turntable-Backlight-Cartridge/dp/B08DLJ676B/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1TZQHTKB58DP6&keywords=turntable+scale&qid=1680878455&sprefix=turntable+scale,aps,97&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A1P1OHB2JFMIPI&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExSk1OR0Q3WlVDQk1QJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzI0MTYyMUFDNkJRUjBFTURZVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUExMDQ3NzcyVlE3OFU1N1BUTEE5JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Be very careful, and don't waste your money. Check out these two stylus brushes:
https://www.amazon.com/Clearaudio-DIAMOND-STYLUS-BRUSH/dp/B003JUE2R0/ref=sr_1_13?crid=2Y1DDNE1OUWWI&keywords=stylus+brush&qid=1680876637&sprefix=stylus+brush,aps,118&sr=8-13
https://www.amazon.com/GEAR-Ultimate-Diamond-Stylus-Brush/dp/B00TNFOILK/ref=sr_1_21?crid=2Y1DDNE1OUWWI&keywords=stylus+brush&qid=1680876637&sprefix=stylus+brush,aps,118&sr=8-21
They are identical, yet $20 different in price.
Same with this digital scale vs the one from Music Direct ($13 compared to $55):
https://www.amazon.com/DIGITNOW-Precise-Turntable-Backlight-Cartridge/dp/B08DLJ676B/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1TZQHTKB58DP6&keywords=turntable+scale&qid=1680878455&sprefix=turntable+scale,aps,97&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A1P1OHB2JFMIPI&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExSk1OR0Q3WlVDQk1QJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzI0MTYyMUFDNkJRUjBFTURZVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUExMDQ3NzcyVlE3OFU1N1BUTEE5JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
Thanks man.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I dunno about MC being superior to MM cartridges. I've found some darn fine sounding moving magnet carts and am currently enjoying my new Goldring a hella lot. I've heard it also that MC are better, but it's like I always say, it's subjective.
One thing about moving coils, you can't replace the stylus like you can with moving magnets. MCs need to be sent off for retipping which IMO give MM that advantage. I own both, 8 different cartridges now in total and find both MM/MC to sound good. Flavah of the Day, Dan.
My advice is for you to play around with some different carts, experiment and see for yourself. I took a cheapo, Audio Technica AT-91R, did a RigB mod to it. Fitted an Analogis, nude elliptical black diamond to it and made a $30.00 cartridge sing like a $300.00 cartridge. Even the cheapest of AT cartridges sound decent IMO. The AT-3600L is actually the same cartridge as the Rega Carbon. I bought a 3600L for 16 bucks and was pleasantly surprised at how good this cheap little cartridge sounded.
That's my .02ç for the day. Main thing is just to have fun with it and keep spinning them records.
I'm gonna Rock my Stock Thorens T-170 Table cartridge, it sounds really good but honestly I have nothin to compare it to. BUT I plan on streaming the same Steely Dan Album I have and see how it compares. I have 3 different versions of the same exact Album which is fun.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Just like everything else in our hobby, the rabbit hole goes so deep its not funny. So That is interesting that you said around that $500 mark is a good place to be. Especially for someone like me who avoided Vinyl for decades as I find it to much of a hassle BUT for those Friday nights with the wife , a bottle of wine and a good record, I can see this being a nice addition to the hobby. I don't want to go crazy which I find myself going there as this is mechanical and fun.There are many excellent moving magnet cartridges available. The thing with turntable systems is there is always something that can be added on or upgraded but for many people a $500 turntable and cartridge will be all they ever really need to enjoy their LPs.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
