Be honest: how worth it is the crossover upgrades?

jakebake · February 2022

I have rta12C’s right now… with current components prices increasing and depending on the quality of the caps, etc how worth it are these crossover upgrades for say $500-$1000+?

Is it a night and day difference or is it 5%?

Obviously different speakers but for instance for $1000 you can get Tekton Lores or a good chunk towards KEF ls50 metas or even start going towards Zu omens etc etc…

It’s not about the money just wondering honestly how much does this really help and at what point is it better just to get something newer or even move up the Polk vintage line instead… I’m sure that’s a difficult question to ask In vintage speaker forum though.

Thanks for any unbiased opinions!

mhardy6647 · February 2022

Well -- I wouldn't spend a kilobuck on a pair of Tekton Lores... have you heard them? Not my cup of tea, and certainly very different presentation than the Polks (although, truth be told, the RTA12 models I've heard are among my least favorite of the classic Polks -- don't think I recall ever hearing the "C" series, though).

The LS50 Meta, doubtless, sounds good -- but I wouldn't expect scale from it.

Does that make the XO upgrade worth the lucre?
That I cannot help with. Sorry.

jakebake · February 2022

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Well -- I wouldn't spend a kilobuck on a pair of Tekton Lores... have you heard them? Not my cup of tea, and certainly very different presentation than the Polks (although, truth be told, the RTA12 models I've heard are among my least favorite of the classic Polks -- don't think I recall ever hearing the "C" series, though).

The LS50 Meta, doubtless, sounds good -- but I wouldn't expect scale from it.

Does that make the XO upgrade worth the lucre?
That I cannot help with. Sorry.

How would you describe the difference between lores or the polks? I have no heard them in person. What polks do you like the most and why don’t you like the rta12?

Fair enough, but then… how much of an upgrade is doing the XO upgrade with high end parts compared to not doing it…

Gardenstater · February 2022

Well let's see.......how many times have I heard someone lament afterwards that the XO upgrade was not worth the money..........come to think of it I've never heard anyone here say that!

It certainly helps if you can do the labor yourself. ClarityCap CSA seem to be lots cheaper than Sonicaps if they have the correct values.

I did the MW wire at the same time as the XO upgrade but it was way more than a 5% improvement. Hard to put a number on it but it was a night and day difference and for the $400 or so I spent it was totally worth it (pre Bidenomics/Coronavirus inflation).

F1nut · February 2022

Crossover upgrades can result in vast improvements, but that depends on the speakers as well as the chosen crossover components.

VR3 · February 2022

Doesn't make a big difference, I don't recommend it.....

😉

xschop · February 2022

New capacitors are essential. What brand is up to you. Do that and get a silk dome tweeter, preferably RDO's and then do the inexpensive MW basket mods, then you'll be 90-95% there.

audioluvr · February 2022

IMHO most all speakers can be significantly improved with quality new crossover components. But if everything else upstream is meh... Don't bother.

VR3 · February 2022

Anyone serious in this hobby is doing a disservice to themselves by running speakers with inferior crossovers parts.

You can spend thousands, millions of dollars on front end components and cables but if the first thing your tweeter sees is a cheap sand cast resistor you are already done before you started!

You can literally spend 40 dollars on mox resistors and achieve a tremendous upgrade on that alone!

Gardenstater · February 2022

Interesting article I found on Resistor Sound in XO's. Too bad he didn't test the Vishay/Mills wirewounds that most of us are using:

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/mundorf/Resistors-vol5-no-3-HIFICritic.pdf

Also interesting article, which seems to say that wirewounds (good wattage ratings) and metal foils (don't seem to have very much wattage capability?) are best for low noise but it may be more complicated due to some other factors like EMI pickup of wirewounds which might be as much distortion as the current noise and thermal noise and capacitive and inductive reactance issues

https://www.eetimes.com/selecting-resistors-for-preamp-amplifier-and-other-high-end-audio-applications/#

TroyD · February 2022

It depends.....IMO, you aren't going to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

A pair of RTA 12's? I wouldn't bother....and that holds true for a LOT of speakers. For what you put into it....you've still got a mediocre, albeit better sounding, speaker.

However, in other cases....like my Bozaks. YES ! OH EMM GEE, YES!!

If it was a speaker you would have wanted new, do it.

Tony M · February 2022

There's a ton of experience and advice from members up above this post.

Read and Learn grasshopper.

Emlyn · February 2022

I agree that the 12Cs aren't the best speaker to spend time and money on trying to improve, especially if it involves hundreds of dollars. There's not much special about them. Vintage SDA speakers are worth the effort though because they are something special and unique.

A possibly better option is to direct any money that would be spent to buy a new pair of Polk Reserve R200s or similar speaker. They're a very versatile speaker.

Gardenstater · February 2022

I wouldn't upgrade the XO's in the Monitor or RTA (or SDA) series *if* you know you are going to want to sell them in a year or two. I feel that in my case it was well worth it for my 7B's and I would do it again even with inflated prices 2 yrs later (wow!), but I have no intention of selling them any time soon and if I did it would just be to give a gift basically to a fellow audiophile because they do not seem to pull in what they are worth (especially upgraded!). I have heard the imaging and the bass with the RTA 12B and C is superior to the 7. Unfortunately I haven't had the luxury of hearing them.

Jazzhead · February 2022

It's difficult to quantify the improvement from any single upgrade you do to your system at the outset. Upgrades are cumulative, and any improvement you do to any aspect of your system impacts the end result resolution. Once you achieve a high level of resolution you can hear the difference between connectors, cables, upstream gear etc. Lets suppose you rebuilt your crossovers then later, after getting your gear where you want it, you went and soldered all those old caps, resistors, etc. back in and gave it a listen... I doubt think you would like what you would hear.

oldrocker · February 2022

FWIW, I have various vintage Polk speakers "not the 12's", none have had the crossovers redone.

A friend has a similar set of SDA2B's like mine.
His set has had the crossovers redone.

He's running the same Parasound gear that I use, I can say his speakers
sound much better, not so much difference at really lower volumes but when he opens them up
a bit, I can hear quite a difference.

If the mod wizards in this room lived closer to me, I'd have mine redone in a heartbeat and be done.

xschop · February 2022

I can add that all the vintage Polks that I've redone, I listened to for awhile before rebuilding the x-overs. Even with inexpensive Dayton caps, the benefit of clarity in midrange and upper registers is a huge improvement.

I have heard the Sonic Caps in the tweeter circuits of converted SDA-10Bs and the sound is clear, acurate, and seemed a bit more transient response in the highs.

wispolkboy · February 2022

7a's with Sonicap=BIG improvement
5a's with clarity= Big improvement
5b's with clarity=good improvement
4a's (2 sets) with clarity=good improvement
SDA2A's with clarity=Big improvement
I really like clarity caps for the money. If I could have afforded sonic caps, I would have gone with them all around. Nothing wrong with clarity, I especially like what they did for my 5a's.

audioluvr · February 2022

I did RTA-11t's with Dayton/Mills/RDO-194's and the improvement was not subtle on my system. They are in my GF's living room now run by a Yamaha AVR but still sound great.

Clipdat · February 2022

When you eliminate one of the weakest links in your system (inferior crossover components), you suddenly realize the full performance potential of your upstream components.

Suddenly your amplifier and source component(s) start sounding way better than you've ever heard them.

StantonZ · February 2022

Upgrading the XO's in my Monitor 10's was one of the best "bang for the buck" things I've ever done...and I wrote an article about my experience (https://www.audioholics.com/diy-audio/upgrade-speaker-crossover-polk-audio). After a short "break in" time, I could easily hear the difference (although my hearing was much better back then). The only caveat is that component pricing was much cheaper back when I did it (also replaced the tweeters).

tonyb · February 2022

TroyD wrote: »

It depends.....IMO, you aren't going to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

A pair of RTA 12's? I wouldn't bother....and that holds true for a LOT of speakers. For what you put into it....you've still got a mediocre, albeit better sounding, speaker.

However, in other cases....like my Bozaks. YES ! OH EMM GEE, YES!!

If it was a speaker you would have wanted new, do it.

This right here ^

Tony M · February 2022

Am I reading these comments, right?

These RTA12b's aren't worth upgrading?

Gardenstater · February 2022

Yes TonyM apparently some believe so. I think some would differ, like perhaps @Jazzhead but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I believe that is the earliest one, the RTA12 that didn't have the more sophisticated XO circuit that fed a reduced bandwith signal to the outer MW, but just the same......

xschop · February 2022

Those await SDA mods.

TroyD · February 2022

I was not a huge fan of the RTA 12....

Jazzhead · February 2022

These old speakers are for those that like to get down deep in the the Rabbit Hole and tinker. The stock RTA-12's sound OK, but are sort of boomy, shouty (one person wrote "in your face"), smeared, and lacking bass slam. If you do enough to them they sound darn good for what they are. I think I have found the sweet spot with mine (lots of mods and listening). On certain recordings they produce tight, tuneful bass that can shudder my 14 x 26 ft. room. They're pretty accurate to my ears and are capable of some spooky imaging. Much of this performance didn't become apparent until I started driving them with gobs of power. That said, they're certainly not SDA's or the like. They're an old design with lots of limitations. My goal has been trying to wring out all the performance I could possibly get (I'm the original owner). I imagine one of these days I will get the itch and upgrade - but its been a lot of fun tweaking on them.

Tony M · February 2022

Well, the "good power supply" is my only listening experience with my pair of 12b's.

I think I've only heard them with a Adcom GFA 555II amp and Adcom pre.. + a Pioneer Elite CD changer.

Maybe I heard them as well as they could sound. Within my budget too.

TennMan · February 2022

xschop wrote: »

I can add that all the vintage Polks that I've redone, I listened to for awhile before rebuilding the x-overs. Even with inexpensive Dayton caps, the benefit of clarity in midrange and upper registers is a huge improvement.

I have heard the Sonic Caps in the tweeter circuits of converted SDA-10Bs and the sound is clear, acurate, and seemed a bit more transient response in the highs.

I converted a pair of 10Bs to SDAs several years ago. I might have been the first person on here to do it because a lot of people told me I was wasting my time and it wouldn't work. I thought they were a great sounding pair of speakers. Maybe not on par with my 2B-TLs in the bass department but otherwise they sounded really good. I have a pair of CRS+ and I liked the SDA-10Bs better.

motorstereo · February 2022

Years ago when I used to bring home various vintage speakers recapping them was a fun sport to see how they responded afterwards. A few of them I noticed very little change despite the new caps. Rta12b's were one of those pairs I noticed very little change and they didn't last long here. Another pair was Technics sb7000a's. Lots of caps in those crossovers and they all got changed with only a slight improvement. Certainly not worth the time or money spent.

A couple pair that did show night and day improvements were some 50+ year old Mcintosh ml1c's and klh12's that were full of cheap made in Mexico Temple caps. That gave me reason to believe that the really old speakers with the cheap crossover caps were the ones that gave the most bang for the buck improvements. But that idea fell flat when I recapped an old pair of Sansui kabukis. No matter what there's no helping those klunkers.

xschop · February 2022

TennMan wrote: »

xschop wrote: »

I can add that all the vintage Polks that I've redone, I listened to for awhile before rebuilding the x-overs. Even with inexpensive Dayton caps, the benefit of clarity in midrange and upper registers is a huge improvement.

I have heard the Sonic Caps in the tweeter circuits of converted SDA-10Bs and the sound is clear, acurate, and seemed a bit more transient response in the highs.

I converted a pair of 10Bs to SDAs several years ago. I might have been the first person on here to do it because a lot of people told me I was wasting my time and it wouldn't work. I thought they were a great sounding pair of speakers. Maybe not on par with my 2B-TLs in the bass department but otherwise they sounded really good. I have a pair of CRS+ and I liked the SDA-10Bs better.

Your conversion is was inspired me to do the same and experiment. Indeed they sounded like "Mini-2Bs" without the very lowest bass extention. But the slam and less-wide (albeit more realistic) soundstage out-shined CRS+ in my opinion.

I've recently experimented with the CRS+ crossovers in 8TLs. Turned on their sides, and only a foot from back walls, they shame a set of CRS's. The closer the tweeter to the stereo MW driver, the better the imaging is what I've found.

Be honest: how worth it is the crossover upgrades?

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