Be honest: how worth it is the crossover upgrades?
Comments
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Thank you for all the responses! Its hard to decipher what I'll really think without doing it since there are so many varying opinions. However, I do think that a lot of people here really enjoy the process of converting these speakers...almost more than the result. And I completely understand that because I do it with other things this just isn't something i'm well versed in or have the time to do myself. I honestly like the Rta12c a lot and I'd love to eventually find a good condition sda local to try. The RDO194 tweeters are back in stock so I might get those and start there, but I think I am going to get and try out the new KLH Monitor Fives, they've been getting great reviews and with at home trials being a thing I might as well. Seems like they'll take what I like about the vintage Polks and increase that as well as add more of the imaging and soundstage I want. In the meantime I am going to probably keep the RTA12c and do the XO in a couple months or if I find some SDAs I might check those out. Any chance of components pricing coming down any time soon?
Those of you who don't really enjoy the Rta12c... why not? Again, i'm gonna at least get the tweeter and try that. -
Monitor 12 Series 2 w/ 198's
Even with the inexpensive caps (the best Daytons, which are made well, but I think they're not on par soundwise with more expensive brands), the upgrade is amazing compared to aging stock caps.
The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage -
Not that this comment'll add much value (imagine that?!
), but I have found empirically (& strictly anecdotally) that the vintage monkey coffins (specifically, air suspension alignment loudspeakers) with very simple crossovers (e.g., KLH Six, EPI 100 -- and their ilk) benefit phenomenally in terms of transparency when their original XO caps (which were usually, although not always, NP electrolytics) are swapped with even very modest (e.g., Bennic/Dayton) modern non-electrolytic capacitors.
There are lots of easily rationalized reasons for this (not the least of which is the undeniable poor condition of a 40 to 50 year old electrolytic!) -- but, FWIW, lots of bang for the buck in replacing the single
cap in one of those old classics. That plus feeding them a lot of high-quality power brings 'em up to fighting trim (again, FWIW).
... but I digress.
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I was curious which older models have just on cap and maybe an inductor for simplicity's sake.
Guess they just rely on good ol' fashioned roll-off?
Thanks MhardyDon't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
I was curious which older models have just on cap and maybe an inductor for simplicity's sake.
Guess they just rely on good ol' fashioned roll-off?
Thanks Mhardy
De nada.
The EPI XO, in most cases, was simple as it could be -- the woofer was designed to roll off smoothly, so the XO in most of them was just a capacitor high-pass filter for the tweeter.
... and you know what? They were good sounding loudspeakers.
Pair o' EPI 110C that used to live here.
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I meant to share this basic XO tutorial and this is a good time I guess. It's easy reading for non EE types such as myself. 4th order has 24dB/octave steep slopes but it has no phase shift at the crossover frequency. Just one wavelength relative time delay. 1st order has a shallow 6dB/ octave shallow slope and 90 deg phase shift at the crossover frequency and drivers must have smooth natural rolloffs or else abnormalities will be heard as stated^^
https://download.phoenixphorum.com/TechSupport/X-Over Chart.pdfGeorge / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
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Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
When I was a young whipper snapper, a neighbor had EPI-100s. They got lost in the room and that inverted dome sounded awesome.
What frequency are they crossed over at?
Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
don't recall offhand... hold on a moment...
1800 Hz, per Huy Powell -- although the XO (again, per Huy) uses a 10 uF capacitor = ca. 2kHz @ 8 ohms (nominally)
https://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi100.htm
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A few years ago I was fortunate enough to have a pair of EPI 100's, small Advents and Dynaco a25's here at the same time to compare. All had similarly sized cabs with 8'' woofers with single cap crossovers and their original tweeters. I put modern caps in them and out of those 3 I found I preferred the small Advents. A lot of fun could be had back then for very little $$. Just today though I bought a pair of IMF super compact II's and that pair alone cost me more than all 3 of those vintage 2 ways along with their new caps. Sadly there isn't much left here now to compare the IMF's to.
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The SuperCompact IIs that I had were absolutely & irrevocably superb. I would have them still, but I didn't want to have to deal with re-surrounding the midrange drivers.
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I thew some speakers away because I was stupid.
I thought I didn't have the skills to re-foam speakers.
Man, if I could go back in time.
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
I had an interesting experience a few months ago. It speaks to the question asked here. A friend has a pair of 1C studios that have near 0 hours on them. He recently decided to pull them out and put them to use. He upgraded to RD0194 tweeters but otherwise they are completely unmolested.
I have a pair of fully upgraded 1C that are relegated to a closet in my house. A few weeks ago I pulled the upgraded gimpod boards out of my 1Cs to let him see the difference. He reported virtually no difference and today I was able to verify.
I went to his place, he had one of each, new and old, crossover set up when I arrived. I was able to hear the difference, but it was much more subtle than I expected. The modded crossover was slightly more refined, slightly louder and oeverall did sound better, but I really expected more.
We were listening to the new bluesound node to an Adcom 555ii to the 1Cs. The sound was very good in a difficult roomSDA SRS 2.3tl, SDA 1C, SDA 2B (TL mod), Reserve 200 -
I don't think having one speaker with the stock crossover and the other with the upgraded one playing is a valid method of evaluating what is what, especially with SDA's.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
mhardy6647 wrote: »The SuperCompact IIs that I had were absolutely & irrevocably superb. I would have them still, but I didn't want to have to deal with re-surrounding the midrange drivers.
Well that's certainly good to hear.......so you're saying they should easily best the small Advents?
What I'm really hoping for is that they're worth the drive to downtown Providence RI to pick them up next week. I'm not a fan of big city driving and especially cities that I'm not familiar with. -
The crossover upgrade is worth it.
What also brings it all together is a fresh internal rewire.
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motorstereo wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »The SuperCompact IIs that I had were absolutely & irrevocably superb. I would have them still, but I didn't want to have to deal with re-surrounding the midrange drivers.
Well that's certainly good to hear.......so you're saying they should easily best the small Advents?
What I'm really hoping for is that they're worth the drive to downtown Providence RI to pick them up next week. I'm not a fan of big city driving and especially cities that I'm not familiar with.
They're very much in classic British monitor territory -- and they weren't inexpensive when new (nor are they usually now).
They're also very easy to drive. I even tried them with SE 2A3 and thought they sounded quite fine with that mere 3.5 watts.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »motorstereo wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »The SuperCompact IIs that I had were absolutely & irrevocably superb. I would have them still, but I didn't want to have to deal with re-surrounding the midrange drivers.
Well that's certainly good to hear.......so you're saying they should easily best the small Advents?
What I'm really hoping for is that they're worth the drive to downtown Providence RI to pick them up next week. I'm not a fan of big city driving and especially cities that I'm not familiar with.
They're very much in classic British monitor territory -- and they weren't inexpensive when new (nor are they usually now).
They're also very easy to drive. I even tried them with SE 2A3 and thought they sounded quite fine with that mere 3.5 watts.
Wow.......I just looked them up in my bluebook and yessir you are correct. Those little buggers retailed for $1200 when they were new in the early 80's. Thankfully mine don't have foam rot issues as the surrounds are rubber I've been told.
This will be my 3rd pair of English speakers. A pair of Kef bookies were here for a while which I did not care for and an old pair of EMI 529's which I did like very much. -
Look like they come TL'ed from factory.Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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I don't think having one speaker with the stock crossover and the other with the upgraded one playing is a valid method of evaluating what is what, especially with SDA's.
I'm sure what you are saying is fair. Also, in this case the 1Cs in question were virtually NOS. They had been properly stored for their entire life. Even so, I was surprised how similar the two sides sounded. I could immediately pick out the upgraded crossover, but the difference was more subtitle than I expected. Maybe this speaks to my incorrect assumption more than anything else. I am still learning for sure.SDA SRS 2.3tl, SDA 1C, SDA 2B (TL mod), Reserve 200 -
Unless the new XO had a ton of hours on it, it wouldn't be a fair comparison.
My 2.3tl's took a fair amount of time. They were just starting to come together when I got flooded out. Every time I played them after about 100hrs they surprised me more and more on music I had 10-20yrs of listening to.
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The midrange driver on the SuperCompact II is transmission line loaded (not the woofer), interestingly.
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Unless the new XO had a ton of hours on it, it wouldn't be a fair comparison.
My 2.3tl's took a fair amount of time. They were just starting to come together when I got flooded out. Every time I played them after about 100hrs they surprised me more and more on music I had 10-20yrs of listening to.
I don't know how many hours, but the upgraded XO was pulled out of my own 1Cs. They are thoroughly broken in a while ago. I did notice a significant improvement over time with my 2Btl, 1C and 2.3tl after a few hundred hours.SDA SRS 2.3tl, SDA 1C, SDA 2B (TL mod), Reserve 200 -
A lot depends on if the old caps are truly bad or just "sort of" beginning to go bad. electrolytics eventually go bad over time, but it depends on many factors.
I have seen some very old speakers, where the caps were still (shockingly) working fine, and some 15 years old that were horrible. It is partially luck of the draw.
Never spend a "lot" on a crossover and think it will add a lot of turnaround value. As soon as you get on Craigs or Ebay, crossover upgrades are very hard to explain to those not in the know.
Do spend if you want to keep them for a while, and do not care about recouping.
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So, I've wondered for a long time but never asked...what does TL stand for when a speaker has been TL'd?Yep, my name really is Bob.
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So, I've wondered for a long time but never asked...what does TL stand for when a speaker has been TL'd?
https://polksda.com/pdfs/RTA_TL_Sales_Brochure.pdf -
trilaminate. The SL3000 tweeter was a trilaminate dome material.George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
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It doesn't (didn't) mean transmission line when Polk uses (used) "TL"
But that is what it means to most speaker-folks.
I never knew until the posts above what TL meant in Polk's patois!
