Upgrading to LSiM series, do I need more power?

csphokie
csphokie Posts: 15
edited October 2020 in Speakers
Currently running a Yamaha RX-V867 (95w x channel) and have old Monitor CS2 and Monitor 50 towers in the front and a Bic F12 Sub. Finally moving to surround and recently added Side Surrounds (FXi4) and rears (OWM for now, going to in-wall soon). Large vaulted room (14x22x17' ceilings) with tile floors.

Just purchased the LSiM 706C center channel and am eying the LSiM 703 bookshelves for the front L/R (moving away from towers).

2 Questions - Do the 703's pair well w/ the 706 AND do I need separate amplification? I've read that the LSiM require a lot of power. Also saw that 3 channel amps are $$$ (1k+ in my limited research).

Appreciate any help! Been lurking and reading for a a few weeks, impressed w/ the knowledge and figured I'd go ahead and dive in!
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Comments

  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 2,925
    Yes, the 703 and 706 models work well together. You would be best off getting a separate amplifier for all three unless you only want to listen to them at low volume. Cranking up the volume could damage the speakers.
    1. Polk LSiM-707, LSiM-704C, LSiM-702FX; Dual SVS SB2000 subwoofers; Marantz SR7011 receiver; Parasound A31 and A23 amps; Oppo 205; Sony 65" 4K TV; FIOS; PS Audio Power Plant Premier; MIT S2 cables
    2. JM Labs Electra 920.1; Parasound JC2 and JC5; Sony HAP-Z1ES; Marantz SA8004 SACD; Music Hall MMF7 and Acoustech phono pre; PS Audio P1000; MIT S1 Cables
    3. Polk LSiM703; Anthem Pre-2L SE; Parasound A21; Sony 48" 4K TV; Wyred4Sound DAC 2; Oppo 203; Squeezebox Touch; PS Audio Power Director 4.7; MIT S3 cables
  • Hermitism
    Hermitism Posts: 3,511
    The 706 is timbre matched with the 703s. The 706 is the larger of the two centers that match the LSiM line. It's important to have the front stage (front three) speakers to be timbre matched. Not as important for the surrounds, which yours are not. If you go with the 703s, keep in mind that you are going to need good stands. The 703s are large bookshelf speakers.

    I'll let someone else speak about power, but they are going to say that you will always benefit from external amplification. Just don't go crazy on the volume knob! You always want clean power going to the speakers. Amp strain can damage speakers by clipping and can also sound harsh. Set the speakers to "Small" in the AVR setup to remove some of the strain on the AVR's amp. But I suspect the forum will recommend more power.

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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,686
    edited October 2020
    Heck yeah, you’ll definitely want more power! For a nice budget friendly amp that pairs well with Polk I’d check out the Outlaw Audio multichannel amps.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,234
    703’s are sweet. So is the 706. I’ve used them with several Pioneer Elite receivers, although they were listed at 120-140 watts/ch. I didn’t crank it, as others mentioned. The 703’s will sound better and better as the quality of the amplification gets better. That’s one of the signs of a good speaker. Don’t forget there is a long break-in period for those speakers, they may sound crappy until they break in or they may go from decent to crappy for a hundred hours or more. You’re going from S50’s to 703’s - so the question is whether the 703’s will be significantly more difficult to drive than the Signature towers you have now. Can’t remember if the 703’s are 8 ohm or 6 ohm nominal but if you’re using a sub I wonder if the 703’s would really be that much harder to drive, but others can chime in on that as I’ve never had the S50’s. I’d go for the 703’s - they are great bang for the buck if you get them on sale. As your budget improves get a good amp. In the meantime don’t go nuts on the volume knob. They’ll sound good after break in but when you get better power they will sound excellent.
  • SIHAB
    SIHAB Posts: 2,073
    As Dro says...
    I've wanted to but never have moved to a separate amp.
    I'm running a Denon 4520ci (150W)
    You COULD get a 5 channel amp and just use 3 channels for ****.xx
    This is part of the fun!
  • Man, you guys are great, thanks for the great responses! I couldn't help myself and went ahead and orderd the 703s as I was afraid they may be hard to find in the future (Amazon had them at a MUCH better price than any other seller I could find). I will def hook them up and start using w/ just the AVR.

    Another question, as I'm pretty ignorant about amps...really just started reading up on them the past few days, the Outlaw 5000 looks intriguing from a cost perspective and seems to get good reviews. My yamaha is supposed to put out 95w/channel, the Outlaw says 120W per channel. Will the extra 25W make that much of a difference to the speakers? Or is it just that the amp will more consistently deliver that wattage than the AVR? And would it make a difference if I hooked up just the LCR to the amp vs LCR & side surrounds?

    Thanks again for the great info!
  • Much more to do the quality of amplification. Also the Outlaw will drive 5 channels at 120wpc at the same time and 170wpc when driving two channels, with inaudible distortion. Your AVR won’t come close to that. So you’ll notice a much cleaner sound, faster transients, and just better musically.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 7,103
    Much more to do the quality of amplification. Also the Outlaw will drive 5 channels at 120wpc at the same time and 170wpc when driving two channels, with inaudible distortion. Your AVR won’t come close to that. So you’ll notice a much cleaner sound, faster transients, and just better musically.

    Yep all this. Your yammie is a pretty darn good home theater processor with a free, cheap 7 channel amp thrown in. The first step to getting better sound after buying better speakers is to stop using that cheap internal amp...
    Living Room 2.1: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Crown XLS 1002 amp; Musical Fidelity A308; NAD M51 DAC; Sony UBP-x1000es
    Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5
    Master Bedroom
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology promonitor 800; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • Milito
    Milito Posts: 1,185
    I had a Outlaw 5000 with my RX-A2070 Yamaha and ran my LR and center channel off of it. I like it much better than just using the Yamaha to drive them.
    Yamaha RX-A2070, Music Hall A70.2 integrated amp, Benchmark Dac1, Bluesound NODE 2i, HSU VTF-2 MK5, LSiM705, LSiM704, Douglas Connection Alpha 12AWG OCC Speaker Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha Analog Interconnect Cables, Audioquest Interconnects and Digital Cables, Douglas Connection Alpha 11 OCC Custom Power Cable, Cullen Gold and Crossover Series Power Cables, Signal Power Cable, Furman PL-8C 15 Power Conditioner, Fluance RT85, Parasound Zphono USB Phono Preamp, Sony 65" 900F, Sony UBP-X700, Fios.
  • So my neighbor just offered me some rebuilt def tech pro 400 towers to try out. Any thoughts on these? Would they sound ok with the 706 center? Good enough to consider returning the 703s? Going to hook them up and try them for a bit. Curious how they sound! Thanks
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,234
    Don't forget if you want to compare them that the 703's will likely require an extensive break-in period before they are going to sound good. For mine, it was over 40 hours before they sounded ok and maybe 100 hours before they started sounding consistently sweet.
  • Good to know about that break in period! Just got the lsim3s today and are currently set up looking beautiful next to the lsim6. I ran thru the ypao set up on my Yamaha twice and both times it came back showing the 3s as large (not to mention all of my lcr as out of phase). First time this happened even when using my old tower as and the deftech towers I tried this weekend. Seem normal?

    Definitely planning on going with the outlaw or emotiva 5 channel amp once the bank account settles down a bit..lol.
  • bms
    bms Posts: 174
    I am powering my front 3 with Outlaw 2200 monoblocks. They do a great job. Also, if one goes down, I only need to replace it and still have power to at least 2.

    They were discounted to $800 for 3 when I bought, but I see they're now around $1,100 + shipping. Maybe they'll have a Black Friday sale...?
    bms
    Family Room:
    Onkyo TX-RZ920
    Outlaw 2200 monoblock amps x 3
    Sony UBP-X700
    Vizio M75-E1
    Polk LSiM 703's
    Polk LSiM 706
    Polk RTi6's
    Polk RTi4's
    Dual SVS PB13-Ultra’s
    PC13-Ultra

    Bonus Room:
    Onkyo TX-SR806
    PS3
    Panasonic TC-P42G10
    Polk RTi10's
    Polk CSi5
    Polk R50's
    SVS PB10-ISD

    For sale:
    Onkyo TX-SR603X
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 2,925
    csphokie wrote: »
    Good to know about that break in period! Just got the lsim3s today and are currently set up looking beautiful next to the lsim6. I ran thru the ypao set up on my Yamaha twice and both times it came back showing the 3s as large (not to mention all of my lcr as out of phase). First time this happened even when using my old tower as and the deftech towers I tried this weekend. Seem normal?

    Definitely planning on going with the outlaw or emotiva 5 channel amp once the bank account settles down a bit..lol.

    The out of phase thing is normal. You can choose to run the 703s as small if you want to and have a subwoofer or two. I think the auto setup sees they can produce deep bass so assumes they are best set as large.

    1. Polk LSiM-707, LSiM-704C, LSiM-702FX; Dual SVS SB2000 subwoofers; Marantz SR7011 receiver; Parasound A31 and A23 amps; Oppo 205; Sony 65" 4K TV; FIOS; PS Audio Power Plant Premier; MIT S2 cables
    2. JM Labs Electra 920.1; Parasound JC2 and JC5; Sony HAP-Z1ES; Marantz SA8004 SACD; Music Hall MMF7 and Acoustech phono pre; PS Audio P1000; MIT S1 Cables
    3. Polk LSiM703; Anthem Pre-2L SE; Parasound A21; Sony 48" 4K TV; Wyred4Sound DAC 2; Oppo 203; Squeezebox Touch; PS Audio Power Director 4.7; MIT S3 cables
  • csphokie
    csphokie Posts: 15
    edited November 2020
    Any thoughts on the marantz ma-6100? Local guy is selling 3 for what seems like a great price. Would those do well or should I stick to a 3 or 5 channel amp?
    Post edited by csphokie on
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 45,619
    Your front 3 should be timbre matched, so forget the Def Techs. Set the front 3 to small and get a sub.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • So I'm ready to pull the trigger on getting an Amp to power my LSIM fronts. I'm pretty much going back and forth between Outlaw, Emotiva & Monoprice looking at their amps. I have the 3 LSIMs in the front, then the side/back surrounds are Polk in-wall 65RT.

    If I go with Outlaw I would lean towards the 5-channel 5000x (120w/channel). Emotiva is currently out of their 5 channel, but I think i would be ok splurging for the XPA-3 (275w/channel). If I went with Monoprice I think I would also go w/ their 3-channel (200w/channel) which seems to get amazing reviews.

    Any recommendations? I know I definitely want to beef up the power going to my front stage...should I focus on the 3 channel Emotiva or is it a good idea to go with the 5-channel outlaw? I was originally hoping to spend $500-700 but falling into the rabbit hole of reading the forums has loosened my wallet up to $1200!

    Room is tile floor (20'x15'x17'h vaulted ceiling), we sit 15' from the tv and we mainly watch 5.1 home theater, though I do enjoy listening to streaming music (amazon HD) and am going to dip my toes in a turntable soon.

    Thanks for the help again y'all!
  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,686
    edited December 2020
    The Outlaw would do fine. I power a 5ch LSiM surround with one and I have no complaints; sounds great. The XPA will sound different than the Outlaw, maybe “better,” it is a more robust amp after all.

    The mono-price, I don’t know, it looks good on paper. I haven’t heard one but they are built by a reputable company ATI who have been building amps for many years. I’ve had one ATI amp, the AT1202, which I liked it at the time, but at 120wpc it doesn’t really compare to the mono price.

    Emotiva from my experience are, maybe, not as transparent as Outlaw, they didn’t do anything wrong, but they just seemed more studio like, where the Outlaw makes the speakers disappear in the room, especially with home theater. FWIW I had the XPA1 mono amps and I’ve read the top end is more subdued than other XPA amps.

    If it were my money I’d probably choose Outlaw again.
    Post edited by jeremymarcinko on
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,365
    I was on the same fence 2 yeas ago. I went Emotiva. For the most part it was a coin toss between the Emo and Monolith. I seriously flipped a dime and it landed on Emo.

    if I could do it all over again I might have just gone Outlaw and saved the $$$ for other gear. The Outlaw does do 175W in 2 channel.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.

    Family Room:
    Samsung UN75RU710DFXZA,
    Denon AVR-X4400H, Emotiva XPA3 GEN3
    Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM, WD Live HUB.
    Main: Polk LsiM 705
    Center: Polk LSiM 704C
    Front High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT
    Surrounds: Polk S15
    Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5

    Bed Room;
    Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270
    Main: Polk Signature S20
    Center: Polk Signature S35
    Rear: Polk R15
    Sub: HSU STF-2

    Working Warehouse;
    Sony 2100ES AVR, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc
    Cerwin Vega AT-12 (blasters) Advent Prodigy (listening)
    Old sony 12" Sub
    Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
  • You guys gave me the slightest push I needed. Outlaw 5000x en route. Looking forward to getting this thing hooked up and hearing the difference!
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 2,925
    Cool. Outlaw makes good amps!
    1. Polk LSiM-707, LSiM-704C, LSiM-702FX; Dual SVS SB2000 subwoofers; Marantz SR7011 receiver; Parasound A31 and A23 amps; Oppo 205; Sony 65" 4K TV; FIOS; PS Audio Power Plant Premier; MIT S2 cables
    2. JM Labs Electra 920.1; Parasound JC2 and JC5; Sony HAP-Z1ES; Marantz SA8004 SACD; Music Hall MMF7 and Acoustech phono pre; PS Audio P1000; MIT S1 Cables
    3. Polk LSiM703; Anthem Pre-2L SE; Parasound A21; Sony 48" 4K TV; Wyred4Sound DAC 2; Oppo 203; Squeezebox Touch; PS Audio Power Director 4.7; MIT S3 cables
  • JayDog
    JayDog Posts: 261
    edited December 2020
    Hey csphokie,
    Be sure to Listen to these guys bro, There is allot of misinformed people out there.
    I own allot of the same gear as you do, including the Outlaw 5000 and the complete LSIM series and I just upgraded to the Parasound Amp but was happy with the Outlaw 5000 w 706,705, & 703s and Denon AVR pre-amp.

    My point is these guys are all 100% spot on with there advice given here!
    This is a Great hang out! Staff keeps the BS out and the members keep the advice real! B)
  • JayDog
    JayDog Posts: 261
    edited December 2020
    csphokie wrote: »
    You guys gave me the slightest push I needed. Outlaw 5000x en route. Looking forward to getting this thing hooked up and hearing the difference!

    Smart man the LSIM series is a totally diferent speaker with the correct amount of power, this is true to all speakers but especially the Polk LSIM line, Now start saving for a Parasound A52+ or A51... :D it is even better then the outlaw 5000x, but all in good time... that is whats fun about it all!
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,380
    @csphokie, see? ^^^
    We can help you spend all your money, too.
    I disabled signatures.
  • shs
    shs Posts: 83
    Here is one analysis of amplifier power needs based on the LSiM series:
    https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • mrloren wrote: »
    The Outlaw does do 175W in 2 channel.

    Yup.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,686
    edited December 2020
    csphokie wrote: »
    You guys gave me the slightest push I needed. Outlaw 5000x en route. Looking forward to getting this thing hooked up and hearing the difference!

    Congrats! What will you be using as the preamp? The Yamaha AVR?
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • Thanks so much all for the help! This rabbit hole is deep, but so warm and comforting. Ha

    Oh yeah. Definitely sticking with the Yamaha for a bit. I think my wife might finally cry uncle if I tried to replace that soon too. I think I know the answer...but is a dedicated pre-amp that much different from my yamaha?

    I’ve been dropping her hints that a tv upgrade may be coming in the semi near future (1-2 years). Our 65 Samsung is 6 years old and while beautiful still does not do 4K, hdr, Dolby vision...lol. Hard to justify the ultra 4K Blu-ray’s with the great audio without a RV that can play it!
  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,686
    edited December 2020
    csphokie wrote: »
    Thanks so much all for the help! This rabbit hole is deep, but so warm and comforting. Ha

    Oh yeah. Definitely sticking with the Yamaha for a bit. I think my wife might finally cry uncle if I tried to replace that soon too. I think I know the answer...but is a dedicated pre-amp that much different from my yamaha?

    I’ve been dropping her hints that a tv upgrade may be coming in the semi near future (1-2 years). Our 65 Samsung is 6 years old and while beautiful still does not do 4K, hdr, Dolby vision...lol. Hard to justify the ultra 4K Blu-ray’s with the great audio without a RV that can play it!

    I used AVRs as preamps for a very long time and had great results using a Yamaha RX-A1010 as a pre. So I think you’ll really like what you have.

    I use the Outlaw pre pro now and even without any auto calibration I enjoy it more. Most notably the Outlaw provides a quieter background and softer sounds such as wind, leaves, and whispers are more realistic in movies. Considering it’s about the same price as a mid tier AVR it might be something to consider when the time comes.
    Post edited by jeremymarcinko on
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • csphokie
    csphokie Posts: 15
    So got the outlaw last week and hooked it all up (using RCAs). Man, Outlaw doesn't really convey in the specs the size and weight of that beast!

    I haven't noticed a huge difference in pure volume, but the HD music does sound amazing (sounded great before). We usually watch TV w/ the yamaha volume between 27-30....still listen at that same volume. I did notice that when cranking it our ears were hurting a bit more than before. I'm not sure if that's because it was just purely louder and I couldn't tell because it is cleaner now, or if there was some other reason.

    Do Amps need a break-in period? If so, roughly how long is it and what sort of a difference does breaking it in make? Thanks as always for the great discussion and knowledge!
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