Upgrading to LSiM series, do I need more power?

rooftop59

csphokie wrote: »

So got the outlaw last week and hooked it all up (using RCAs). Man, Outlaw doesn't really convey in the specs the size and weight of that beast!

I haven't noticed a huge difference in pure volume, but the HD music does sound amazing (sounded great before). We usually watch TV w/ the yamaha volume between 27-30....still listen at that same volume. I did notice that when cranking it our ears were hurting a bit more than before. I'm not sure if that's because it was just purely louder and I couldn't tell because it is cleaner now, or if there was some other reason.

Do Amps need a break-in period? If so, roughly how long is it and what sort of a difference does breaking it in make? Thanks as always for the great discussion and knowledge!

Adding an amp shouldn’t change the volume (especially after you run your avrs calibration), but rather about clarity, blacker background, more detail, usually stronger/tighter bass, etc.

What do you mean by HD music?!?

csphokie

rooftop59 wrote: »

csphokie wrote: »

So got the outlaw last

Adding an amp shouldn’t change the volume (especially after you run your avrs calibration), but rather about clarity, blacker background, more detail, usually stronger/tighter bass, etc.

What do you mean by HD music?!?

Good to know about volume....was wondering if I should notice a difference there, glad that I shouldn't. HD music, just listening to Amazon's high quality music (paid subscription), so not SACDs or albums yet.

mrloren

An amp doesn't make you system louder. it makes it cleaner with a lot less distortion. Speakers can only go so loud.

pawelmwo

shs wrote: »

Here is one analysis of amplifier power needs based on the LSiM series:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/

Polk published max amp recommendations for the 705's to be 250 watt and 707's to be 300 watt. Doesn't sending so much power risk damage to the speaker components? I understand the cleaner power principle but how about pushing reference levels beyond their power recommendation at say 12 feet. Is Polk saying these speakers should not be played with 105dB peaks and what kind of risk is there pushing near 800 watts?

sponger

I think something worth mentioning re: movie theater reference is that a movie theater has multiple speakers--a multitude of multiple speakers in fact. While I can't speak intelligently about how that converts to decibels, I think we can all agree that adding additional speakers of equal output increases the "loudness" for lack of a better word.

I have to admit I wish I had known how easy it actually is to drive the LSiM when I purchased them. I wouldn't have been so preoccupied with making sure I had an avr that could power them, or which had pre-outs. It turned out they are very easy to drive at least from my listening position, which is 10.5 ft away.

I can't imagine turning my AVR past 1/2 tilt for an extended period without going deaf. It screams at 50% volume, and those 5x7 woofers are hammering my apartment along with probably aggravating my neighbors.

Then I hooked up a 110x2 stereo receiver. It's an old 1980s EI core 2chann. But, it says Made In Japan on the back of it, and according to a 1980s copy of Audio Magazine i found on the internet, does its rated power effortlessly.

Here's what happened: 25% volume from a CD player and those 705 got ridiculously loud. It was sort of ironic to me that despite the Denon AVR being rated and bench tested at 150W/chann in stereo, it didn't push the drivers as effortlessly as that 30 /yr old stereo receiver. I think there really some truth to the fact that despite whatever the ratings or bench testing results say, something gets lost in translation in terms of power output from audio / video receivers.

Maybe with the X8500h weighing 50lbs, or with the SR8012/5 with its toro transformer, it's a different story. But this flagship X7200WA with its comparatively massive EI core just doesn't have the dynamic energy of its more minimalistic counterpart.

In either case, there was plenty of power left over for desert. So, I'm not going to knock modern day AVR power plants. And, more relevant to this thread, I think the LSiM will sing with typical AVR power nowadays. Of course speakers like the Signature and T series will be noticeably more sensitive. But, at least for a compact living room setting, I did not find the LSiM difficult to drive at all.

invalid

It's not about volume, it's about sound quality. A decent amp will give you better sound quality even at low volumes.

Milito

They will sing better with a good amp added to an AVR driving your three front speakers, at least they did for me.

tonyb

pawelmwo wrote: »

shs wrote: »

Here is one analysis of amplifier power needs based on the LSiM series:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/

Polk published max amp recommendations for the 705's to be 250 watt and 707's to be 300 watt. Doesn't sending so much power risk damage to the speaker components? I understand the cleaner power principle but how about pushing reference levels beyond their power recommendation at say 12 feet. Is Polk saying these speakers should not be played with 105dB peaks and what kind of risk is there pushing near 800 watts?

You have to understand how power works....then get a grasp on how distortion works to destroy speakers and where it comes from. There is a variety of ways distortion is killing your system.

Power....one fundamental thought most get wrong is that a high powered amp will destroy your speakers. No, they won't...sticky fingers on the volume dial will though. An amp does not through out it's rated power the second you turn it on.

Pay no attention to those recommended watts on back of speakers. Think quality of watts before mass amounts of watts. Think current....before watts. Think distortion and knowing what to listen for, and when to turn the volume down, and where it's coming from.

Read up, much to learn in the arena of power/distortion and it's relation to that volume dial. Use the search button at the top of the page as we have much on this subject. Good luck and happy listening.

shs

pawelmwo wrote: »

shs wrote: »

Here is one analysis of amplifier power needs based on the LSiM series:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/

Polk published max amp recommendations for the 705's to be 250 watt and 707's to be 300 watt. Doesn't sending so much power risk damage to the speaker components? I understand the cleaner power principle but how about pushing reference levels beyond their power recommendation at say 12 feet. Is Polk saying these speakers should not be played with 105dB peaks and what kind of risk is there pushing near 800 watts?

Nobody is talking about pushing 800 watts into any speaker. It is about dynamics. While the average level going into the speaker may only be a few watts and the heat from that easily dissipated, transients in the music, or say, the crack of a gunshot, may require considerably more power, but for a very short period of time. The heat from those short-lived events will not build up and destroy the speaker. A transient that is 20 dB above the average level, not uncommon in uncompressed music, requires 10 times the voltage and 100 times the power as the average level.

As to speaker amplifier power reconditions from the manufacturer, would it help sell speakers if the recommended power was 200-800 watts? It would probably scare people off. This is all about marketing as is the compatible with 8 ohm thing that I point out in the article you reference.

As to distortion, I remember well many years ago showing off my system by playing a recording of Kiri Takanawa singing an aria. She hits this one note that was obviously very impressively loud. Wow! people would remark when she hit that note. Later when I had a much better system, including a more powerful amplifier, that same note was not in any way remarkable. Sure, it was loud, but not remarkably so. It was the distortion caused by the amplifier not being able to reproduce that note with distortion that made it sound louder than the rest of the notes in my earlier system. And as is often pointed out, that distortion can send more power to the tweeter than the undistorted signal, and that lack of amplifier power has destroyed more speakers than higher power amplifiers. Amplifier power is all about cleanly reproducing the whole dynamic range of the music, not about making the music louder. Of course, you can then play things even louder without distortion, and on occasion that is kind of fun. I am thinking of the gunshots in Wind River!

invalid

I used to blow midrange and tweeters all the time when I powered my sda2A's with a receiver, and even with my adcom gfa555 amp, but when I bought my krell amp more blown drivers. The krell can deliver 600 watts into 4 ohms, the adcom was just over 300 into 4ohms. Distortion will blow drivers way quicker than quality power will.

invalid

Made an error in my sentence above supposed to read when I bought my krell amp no more blown drivers.

BlueFox

Why not edit the original post? You can do that for an hour after posting.

invalid

BlueFox wrote: »

Why not edit the original post? You can do that for an hour after posting.

Too late, but for future reference how is that accomplished I don't see an edit icon anywhere.

ken brydson

invalid wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

Why not edit the original post? You can do that for an hour after posting.

Too late, but for future reference how is that accomplished I don't see an edit icon anywhere.

If you're within the allowable edit timeline there will be a little sproket icon in the upper right corner of your post.

BlueFox

Yes. I guess it isn’t obvious what it is for. I have forgotten how I learned that.

audioluvr

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