Multiple tonearms?

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Joey_V
Joey_V Posts: 8,521
in 2 Channel Audio
Question for the hive.

I have been offered a second tonearm, 12" Fatboy Gimbal.

I would need to purchase an arm base and a VTA tower to complete the second assembly, but the purchase of the second arm would be the more difficult (to source) and expensive proposition.

Now, those of you who run 2 tonearms, if you are already satisfied with the single tonearm/cart you have, is there a reason to run 2 arms? I mean, I did experiment with running 2 pairs (actually I had 3 pairs) of amplifiers and I would go between a SS amp and a tube amp depending on my mood.

And then would you run a second stereo cart or go with a mono cart?

I don't see how I can accumulate enough mono records but I guess I would never know unless I tried and see if mono is for me.
Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,874
    edited November 2020
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    Just get two turntables :D
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
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  • tratliff
    tratliff Posts: 1,663
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    I have two turntables. My thought was that my second was for the not so good shape records. I have found that I always prefer the VPI but I should not be playing all the records in it and switch to the Denon.
    2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL Carbon Limited, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, Modwright PH 150, Denon DP-59l w/Denon DL-301MKII, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ Speaker Cables, WAY Silver 4+ Interconnect Cables, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon and Hurricane Power Cables
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,373
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    If someone is really in to original jazz, classical, and pop recordings from the 1960s and before that were recorded in mono a dedicated mono cartridge and tonearm makes sense to get the best out of the listening experience. The Beatles mono albums were reissued on vinyl in mono in 2014. I thought about getting a mono cartridge for those, but haven't got around to it yet. They remain unopened. :)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,049
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    Not just mono/stereo -- if one uses two cartridges of vastly different compliance (e.g., something like an Ortofon SPU vs. a Soundsmith version of the b&o "micro moving cross" moving iron cartridge) it may make sense to have a low-ish mass arm and a high-mass arm, even without interest in mono per se.

    Speaking of mono -- it is worth mentioning that real, vintage mono recordings (prior to ca. the early 1960s) are made from masters cut using cutter heads with no vertical compliance, and the cartridges made for their playback likewise have no vertical compliance. This is why early stereo records often admonish listeners not to play them with a mono cartridge. Conversely, those who are seriously into vintage mono records will insist on true mono cartridges to play them with (as opposed to stereo cartridges with the two output channels paralleled).

    The weird part is that the industry didn't have a "hard stop" on pure mono pressings and cartridges vs. "stereo-compatible mono" cartridges. Eventually, even the mono pressings were cut with stereo cutterheads -- but it was a gradual thing, at least as I understand it. :p

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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    I just don’t want to put that money into an arm, an arm board, a vta tower and a mono cart only to be barely used.

    I wish it was a plug and play thing but I’d have to get a professional to come in and set up the second arm so this is definitely a deep investment...

    I can see myself liking 2 carts and playing one or the other. Both have to be sufficiently different to warrant the preference of one or the other. Otherwise, if one sounds superior consistently then I might just end up listening to the one arm anyway...
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,049
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    Unless you get fairly esoteric with cartridges (as mentioned before), today's medium
    mass arms will work with most modern medium compliance cartridges. Just go with an arm with removable headshell or removable arm wand and invest in a few for the cartridges you really want to use.
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  • displayname
    displayname Posts: 1,133
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    There are so many reasons to get multiple arms, and none of them are affordable or practical. The biggest advantage is being able to tweak to the vinyl on hand. That could be mono vs stereo, one for beat records and good pressing, one focused on natural music vs digital masters and electronic music, one for 33/45 vs shellac 78s, etc.

    Other reasons are for constant testing. Some VPI owners love the unipivot for easy swapping of arms. Some people might have 2 arm boards but have 10 arms all with various carts installed. Then you just adjust your VTA on the fly and your spinning.

    Two arm boards can also allow you to have a wider range of cartridges for various arm matching. Get one arm with a 10 inch tonearm, a second with a 12 inch arm. Especially if you get carbon arm tubes vs aluminum, then you have massively different effective tonearm mass options to play with various carts with any weight or compliance. Cartridge and tone arm matching is important.

    You could also be swapping out cabling more often if you have two tonearms to play with. If you're big into finding the exact perfect piece to pair with every mood and pressing, two arms presents a lot of options. And we haven't even talked about phonostages yet. Two tonearms with the same arms, cables, and carts can be run into two phonostages for the most direct A/B comparison. Or you can mix and match to your hearts desire. The combinations presented with multiple arm boards is truly endless. A tweakers delight.

    Having said all that, this is really a feature for deep vinyl lovers with deep vinyl pockets. I would imagine most people that specifically buy tables ready for multiple arms have record collections in the thousands.

    You might have gotten an endgame TT, but you could still easily spend more than 3x the cost in options still.

    We tried to tell you the vinyl rabbit hole is deep.
    Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
    Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
    MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
    Discogs
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,049
    edited November 2020
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    kinda, sorta like this -- observed at a little get-together that was quite a few years ago now (EDIT: 2012, I checked). The cartridge that's in use in the photo is not, MM, MI, nor MC... it uses electromagnets. Oh, that Dave Slagle -- he's a card, he is. B)

    f4gc8tqiwnzd.png
    p199g990yku5.png


    http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/
    http://www.intactaudio.com/
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    I need hifi heroin, doc
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,585
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    Joey_V wrote: »
    I need hifi heroin, doc

    What you mean you can't write a script for that? Some doctor you are!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,049
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    Best I can do is hifi morphine -- but I keep playin' Cowboy Junkies albums.
    Real toe-tappers ;)


    PS I loves me some Cowboy Junkies, truth be told... but then again, I am a pretty low-energy kind of guy.

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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    Any recommendations on a mono cart?
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,608
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    Whichever one is the most expensive. (within reason)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,049
    edited November 2020
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    Joey_V wrote: »
    Any recommendations on a mono cart?

    Depends on what sort(s) of mono recordings you're interested in playing.
    https://dgmono.com/2018/04/06/deep-groove-mono-and-the-great-groove-width-mystery/

    For true (pre stereo cutterhead) mono and 1 mil (25 u) grooves:
    https://www.ortofon.com/spu-mono-p-608
    Otherwise, you might want to look at "stereo-compatible" mono cartridges (and styli), just in case. :)

    https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/cartridges-ranges/true-mono/

    I like the Grados, too. I presume they still have at least one mono offering (I haven't kept up with their line much lately, though).
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
    edited November 2020
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    Looking at the Miyajima Infinity Mono

    https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/07/new-miyajima-flagship-infinity-mono.html?m=1

    https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2020/2/8/es15exlx93ui6yojm1cyurnibnff8r
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,049
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    Looks a little chi-chi, but promising.
    Gonna go 1 mil or 0.7 mil? ;)
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  • displayname
    displayname Posts: 1,133
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    @Joey_V so are you just getting a second arm for the mono cart, or are you going both feet in with a full second tonearm set up?

    I think I already know the answer, and I think your wallet probably isn't too happy about it, lol.
    Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
    Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
    MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
    Discogs
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    @displayname

    I’m still researching the pros and cons of mono carts. If it’s true that they are even better than the best stereo carts in terms of small piece acoustic music, vocalists in particular... more density to the voice, then it is something I am interested in for sure.

    As for your question, if I buy the gimbal fatboy, I would need an arm board and a vta tower.

    Maybe if I found a fatboy Uni for sale, I could see doing arm swaps because it is easy.
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • displayname
    displayname Posts: 1,133
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    Joey_V wrote: »
    @displayname

    I’m still researching the pros and cons of mono carts. If it’s true that they are even better than the best stereo carts in terms of small piece acoustic music, vocalists in particular... more density to the voice, then it is something I am interested in for sure.

    As for your question, if I buy the gimbal fatboy, I would need an arm board and a vta tower.

    Maybe if I found a fatboy Uni for sale, I could see doing arm swaps because it is easy.

    Well since we're just helping you spend money, I think it makes sense to have your daily driver on a gimbal arm, then a second armboard with a uni base. Get two arms for the uni, and you can always have a stereo and mono in play. And if you find a cart you like better than the daily driver, move it over to the gimbal arm.
    Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
    Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
    MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
    Discogs
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    Only problem is I’d have to break apart the perfectly set up etna from the Uni (aka dual pivot) fatboy.

    But I see what you mean. Gimbal the daily, uni arm base for another stereo and mono.

    Suddenly I feel faint.

    Maybe I need to sell a few tesla shares.

    🤦🏻‍♂️
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • displayname
    displayname Posts: 1,133
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    Said it before and I'll say it again - no need to rush. You have more then enough new stuff to enjoy. Additional carts and arms will always be there.

    But I'll put one more bug in your ear... you know you don't HAVE to use a VPI arm right? You could hold off and get something really crazy...

    https://www.thecableco.com/analog/tonearms/ta-9000-tonearm.html
    https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/tonearms-accessories/products/graham-phantom-ii-supreme-9-10-or-12-tonearm
    https://www.analogueseduction.net/tonearms/origin-live-agile-tonearm.html?currency=3
    https://elusivedisc.com/clearaudio-tt-2-linear-tracking-tonearm/
    https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/tonearms-accessories/products/tri-planar-u12-tonearm
    https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/tonearms-accessories/products/kuzma-4point-11-inch-precision-tonearm-with-crystal-cable-silver-gold-wire
    Or patiently hunt down the well regarded SME V-12.

    Welcome to the world of endless vinyl rabbit holes.
    Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
    Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
    MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
    Discogs
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    @displayname

    I just read about the SAT turntable.

    Now I wish I won the lotto

    49leo517gft8.jpeg
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • maxward
    maxward Posts: 1,519
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    A quote too often heard from a good friend, “EZ monthly payments!” €210,000.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    maxward wrote: »
    A quote too often heard from a good friend, “EZ monthly payments!” €210,000.

    A freakin' mortgage. I tip my hat to anyone who can afford the SAT. Maybe I can learn a thing or two from them.
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • doctor r
    doctor r Posts: 837
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    Just find/buy another FatBoy Unipivot arm. They would be fast swappable on your current tonearm platform/tower with each set to work on the dual pivot. No loss of the setup you already have up and going as mono does not really need SRA adjustment. The Miyajima Zero is a sweet cart. I currently use the Madake on one of my arms. If you by the Zero Mono consider what albums you will acquiring and playing. If they are original pressings from before about 1960 (maybe '65) then you want the 1mil tip (older records were cut with a slightly wider grove). Later monos the groove is a little narrower so you buy the 0.7mil conical tip. All the current reissues would qualify for the 0.7mil.
    integrated w/DAC module Gryphon Diablo 300
    server Wolf Alpha 3SX
    phono pre Dynamic Sounds Associates Phono II
    turntable/tonearms Origin Live Sovereign Mk3 dual arm, Origin Live Enterprise Mk4, Origin Live Illustrious Mk3c
    cartridges Miyajima Madake, Ortofon Windfeld Ti, Ortofon
    speakers Rockport Mira II
    cables Synergistic Research Cables, Gryphon VPI XLR, Sablon 2020 USB
    rack Adona Eris 6dw
    ultrasonic cleaner Degritter
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,521
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    doctor r wrote: »
    Just find/buy another FatBoy Unipivot arm. They would be fast swappable on your current tonearm platform/tower with each set to work on the dual pivot. No loss of the setup you already have up and going as mono does not really need SRA adjustment. The Miyajima Zero is a sweet cart. I currently use the Madake on one of my arms. If you by the Zero Mono consider what albums you will acquiring and playing. If they are original pressings from before about 1960 (maybe '65) then you want the 1mil tip (older records were cut with a slightly wider grove). Later monos the groove is a little narrower so you buy the 0.7mil conical tip. All the current reissues would qualify for the 0.7mil.

    Wow, very good info.
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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