Tesla Can Remotely Remove Features

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update

It seems like Tesla is saying the autopilot feature was not paid for when the car was bought by the dealer from an auction hosted by Tesla. Still, it's interesting as cars get more and more computers that features can be remotely killed.

Everyone at work is fascinated that I don't have a problem driving a car without a backup camera, lane assist, fall asleep alert, a giant screen in the dashboard, etc. Shoot I have to manually crank my windows down. I'm good with my old school car, thanks.

The P100D is interesting to me because of how quick it is. I likely wouldn't get one as a daily driver, only as a side car if I had tons of money. Which is also unlikely anyway.
afterburnt wrote: »
They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

Village Idiot of Club Polk
«1

Comments

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Another reason to not buy Tesla. I can see a time when a driver on Autopilot will get his car hacked and features deactivated or even turned on against his will while driving, leading to the perfect murder....
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  • civilian
    civilian Posts: 357
    So you miss a payment, and now your car goes from 0-60 in 15 seconds, and no faster than 60. :o
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    Another reason to not buy Tesla. I can see a time when a driver on Autopilot will get his car hacked and features deactivated or even turned on against his will while driving, leading to the perfect murder....

    Ha! You need to stop watching "The Fifth Element". Though I believe this is possible, I think we will all be dead and gone by then. (hopefully).

    PS: I'd love to be able to quantify owning a Tesla.
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  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,825
    civilian wrote: »
    So you miss a payment, and now your car goes from 0-60 in 15 seconds, and no faster than 60. :o

    Then after the grace period for missing that payment, the car gets completely bricked. Or they just program it to drive itself to the repo yard....
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
  • civilian wrote: »
    So you miss a payment, and now your car goes from 0-60 in 15 seconds, and no faster than 60. :o

    Or worse yet is that your own car reports you to the authorities for going over the speed limit and they send you a ticket in the mail. (which by the way is probably in our near future anyway)
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    The time may well come (if single owner-operated cars are still a thing) when the car will brick when it becomes 'technologically infeasible' for the manufacturer to support. I.e., "they" will decide when "you" need to buy a new car.

    I think we'll have AI networks of on-demand transportation that will replace single-owner cars by then, though.

    It might (???) happen before us old guys hit the dusty trail (i.e., next 20-30 years).
  • Upstatemax
    Upstatemax Posts: 2,623
    Interesting that they chose to go the hardline route of swooping in and removing the features.

    Clearly the end purchaser should not have to pay to get the features reinstalled. He was sold a car advertised to have the features.

    This is between the dealer and Tesla to figure out, either way the dealer needs to make it right and fight it out with Tesla themselves.
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    It's no wonder that I have always hated that $hitty band.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Upstatemax wrote: »
    Interesting that they chose to go the hardline route of swooping in and removing the features.

    Clearly the end purchaser should not have to pay to get the features reinstalled. He was sold a car advertised to have the features.

    This is between the dealer and Tesla to figure out, either way the dealer needs to make it right and fight it out with Tesla themselves.

    Tesla is the dealer...
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • Upstatemax
    Upstatemax Posts: 2,623

    Tesla is the dealer...

    Article states the customer bought the used car from a 3rd party dealer.

    The dealer bought the car from a Tesla direct auction.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    edited February 2020
    Correct... the dealer bough the car from Tesla with the features intact.. Tesla was the dealer. Tesla should have audited the car and made corrections PRIOR to it being sold. If they failed to do so AT THAT POINT, the mistake was on them and nobody else.

    This just looks bad for the way they do business. Nobody can sell something, sign the contracts, exchange funds, and then go back months later and say “whoops, I made a mistake”. The car was misrepresented by Tesla to the dealer that purchased it at the Tesla auction, and ultimately to the guy that bought it. Tesla altering the car later is a breach of contract, pure and simple. If they can get away with this, nobody should ever consider buying anything from them.

    Tesla needs to make this right. Good thing this wasn’t done to me, because the class action case I would turn this into would be epic.
    Post edited by nooshinjohn on
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,825
    edited February 2020
    Exactly. If the car was sold As Is at auction by Tesla to a dealer, then from the dealer to the buyer, then whatever was installed on the car should stay with the car. Imagine buying from a private seller, and next day he comes to your house and tries removing the tires/rims, saying he forgot they weren't included. I can't believe they (Tesla) would contest this to the point of litigation.
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    The resale value of a Tesla just tanked, big time.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    This article is vague in what was purchased by the 3rd party dealer. As far as we know this could have been a lease vehicle that had the Autopilot licensed only to the leasee and nothing says that Tesla sold the vehicle with the wording "Includes Autopilot" This is possible that they just simply forgot to turn off the feature prior to delivery. This is no different than if you buy a new car with a free Sirius radio trial then resell it prior to the service expiring and the new owner is told the car comes with free Serius which it actually doesn't. That's the argument, If I was the lawyer defending Tesla, that would be presented. Now, If we were to actually read the sales contract that Tesla provided and it included the words "Includes Autopilot" that would be a different story. But I highly doubt it. Elon Musk is no dummy.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    audioluvr wrote: »
    This article is vague in what was purchased by the 3rd party dealer. As far as we know this could have been a lease vehicle that had the Autopilot licensed only to the leasee and nothing says that Tesla sold the vehicle with the wording "Includes Autopilot"

    Your point is irrelevant. Vehicles are not sold by pieces unless it is scrapped. I cant go back and later say I want my stereo system back or my wheels as I never intended for them to be sold with the car.
    audioluvr wrote: »
    This is possible that they just simply forgot to turn off the feature prior to delivery. This is no different than if you buy a new car with a free Sirius radio trial then resell it prior to the service expiring and the new owner is told the car comes with free Serius which it actually doesn't.

    It is very different. Satellite radio is a subscription service and not a safety feature or other part of a vehicles operating capabilities. The seller of the car has no right to alter, add to or REMOVE anything from the car after it is delivered unless the buyer of said car authorizes it. It ceases to be the property of the seller as soon as paperwork and monies have been exchanged. If Tesla effed up and did not do their due diligence prior to sale, they have zero recourse afterwards. As of now, they are looking at tampering with the safe operation of a motor vehicle, denial of use, breach of contract, and a host of other things that may even be felonious.
    audioluvr wrote: »
    That's the argument, If I was the lawyer defending Tesla, that would be presented. Now, If we were to actually read the sales contract that Tesla provided and it included the words "Includes Autopilot" that would be a different story. But I highly doubt it. Elon Musk is no dummy.

    You would lose that argument all day long. If you were an attorney representing Tesla, you would be better serving your client by telling them they screwed up and work with them to find a path forward from this mess before they need to give this guy a new car, and have to settle a multi million dollar class action/ breach of contract case.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • halen
    halen Posts: 675
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Viking64 wrote: »
    It's no wonder that I have always hated that $hitty band.

    To each his own but I like Tesla

    Tesla is bad ****. Simple and true.

    Haters are jealous. They can’t walk outside of any shopping plaza and their car doesn’t come to them.

    Whereas others. Yep. Their EV Tesla comes to them.

    Halen
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    I'm not remotely close to being jealous.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • halen
    halen Posts: 675
    And before anyone else says anything so damn stupid about. Such as I hate Alexa, I hate google mini, I hate home automation, I hate all these things that could track us.

    Ask yourself. You think you are not tracked by posting on this very forum?

    Stop living in fear where it does not exist.
  • skrol
    skrol Posts: 3,330
    One of my buddies just bought a Model 3 extended range dual motor. It is awesome to drive but the autopilot scares the crap out of me. The handling is great and the acceleration is incredible. However, even though the Google map showed a left turn, the car took a right and had to redirect. It did this kind of thing a couple times. If you are in a slow lane, it will suddenly switch lanes, when safe to do so, but it scared the sh__ out of me.
    Stan

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    HT:
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    halen wrote: »
    And before anyone else says anything so damn stupid about. Such as I hate Alexa, I hate google mini, I hate home automation, I hate all these things that could track us.

    Ask yourself. You think you are not tracked by posting on this very forum?

    Stop living in fear where it does not exist.
    Nobody said they hate Tesla, Sal...

    Just said I do t care for they way they handle their business at times, and this is one of them.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,230
    halen wrote: »
    And before anyone else says anything so damn stupid about. Such as I hate Alexa, I hate google mini, I hate home automation, I hate all these things that could track us.

    Ask yourself. You think you are not tracked by posting on this very forum?

    Stop living in fear where it does not exist.

    Be careful. Be VERY careful. I will not tell a soul but I am tracking you as we speak. It's good money man. What can I say?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • halen
    halen Posts: 675
    edited February 2020
    Hahaha.

    Full disclosure. I do own shares of Tesla and another company called NIO.

    Personally. I like being tracked because I can’t remember anything beyond 24 hours.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,307
    F1nut wrote: »
    I'm not remotely close to being jealous.
    That's because nothing beats a cape and bat wings on demand.
    I disabled signatures.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    msg wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    I'm not remotely close to being jealous.
    That's because nothing beats a cape and bat wings on demand.

    or...

    7g68gwvvgoaa.png
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,707
    polrbehr wrote: »
    Exactly. If the car was sold As Is at auction by Tesla to a dealer, then from the dealer to the buyer, then whatever was installed on the car should stay with the car. Imagine buying from a private seller, and next day he comes to your house and tries removing the tires/rims, saying he forgot they weren't included. I can't believe they (Tesla) would contest this to the point of litigation.

    Have you seen Tesla's financials lately?

    If you remove all the carbon credits they sell from their ledger sheets, they have never turned a profit except for one quarter when they had a stock sale right before the Model S came on board.

    Otherwise, they've been hemorrhaging money to the tune of several hundred million a year, at least, some years the losses have been quarterly.

    If it wasn't for the carbon credit sales Tesla would have been out of business in 2011.

    So they gotta squeeze every last penny out of everything they can. Including making 2nd hand buyers pay for features.

    Tesla isn't really in the business of selling cars anymore, they are in the business of selling subscriptions for software. They are giving away the cars and selling "Software as a Service" models for the features that make Teslas "cool". So if you want to keep your features like Ludicrous Speed, Dance Party Mode or Autopilot, you have to pay a fee for them to turn it on. No fee, no use of the feature. Every Tesla has all the features, they just have licensing switches that turn it on and off. It's the easiest way to control costs in production. You make everything exactly the same and then you just use software switches for whatever tier of subscriber you are selling to. It costs pennies to turn those switches on and off and since your Tesla requires a network connection to be able to get software and firmware updates, you can't lock Tesla out of your car. You're at their mercy. Not for any life threatening stuff or anything like that. Just at your wallet. They will bilk everyone who has drank the Tesla/Elon Musk Kool-Aid for every penny they can and those foolish people will pay it because it somehow defines them and who they are and makes them better than you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxPAwIeL0w

    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    7g68gwvvgoaa.png

    WOW! Just think of all the rude bicyclists I could wipe out with this thing! Not to mention trim my hedges.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Kex
    Kex Posts: 4,892
    It should come as no surprise that Tesla can remove features after a sale, since they can also add them after a sale using OTA updates, but in this particular case, it would seem that either Tesla, or the third party vendor misrepresented the sale. Did the third party vendor discover that the feature was active, and decide to include it in their description, or did the original auction from Tesla describe the feature as available, or included?

    I wouldn’t compare this to reclaiming tires or rims after a sale. It’s a software feature, not a hardware feature. so it does seem more like a subscription service like OnStar to me, but it all depends on how the initial auction vehicle from Tesla was described in the listing.
    Alea jacta est!
  • Kex
    Kex Posts: 4,892
    halen wrote: »
    Hahaha.

    Full disclosure. I do own shares of Tesla and another company called NIO.
    ...
    It was under 180 briefly in June last year. Almost hit 1K this year, but I’ve never managed to buy any: feels too much like gambling, rather than investing, to me. Still, if I had bought at 180, or even 250, I’d certainly hold onto them at this point... except that, if I held a thousand shares, I would now have half a million or more riding on the outcome 😬 😱 ... that would take some courage.
    Alea jacta est!
  • halen
    halen Posts: 675
    edited February 2020
    Kex wrote: »
    halen wrote: »
    Hahaha.

    Full disclosure. I do own shares of Tesla and another company called NIO.
    ...
    It was under 180 briefly in June last year. Almost hit 1K this year, but I’ve never managed to buy any: feels too much like gambling, rather than investing, to me. Still, if I had bought at 180, or even 250, I’d certainly hold onto them at this point... except that, if I held a thousand shares, I would now have half a million or more riding on the outcome 😬 😱 ... that would take some courage.

    Yes they did drop under $200 not long ago. I was able to pick up more shares and averaged down my overall price point. I don’t have enough shares to retire early or a financially secured future for my children. I did, however sell off 50% of what I had when it broke $800. When it goes up that fast, it will go into correction. I sold around $150 too early. But hey, it was enough to wipe out almost 1/3 of my mortgage on a new home I just built several months ago.

    I don’t consider this gambling. There is beauty in shorts, calls, and puts. And a diversified portfolio.

    As for Tesla. Yeah the guy at the helm is kinda radical. Haha. That weed smoking, finance secured to go private guy.

    As for EV. Yeah I love it. Do I care about saving the world? Not a d a m n. It will come to an end anyways. I am too busy making a life for myself and family. Likely I will only have under 100 years to enjoy it and I have every intention of living it. You know. Live don’t just exist.

    As for SaaS (Software as a Service) this is my life. However I also live in the PaaS, IaaS and hybrid world of cloud computing. So yeah every Tesla already is equipped to have almost everything. You just have to pay for it to be activated. It is practically an operating system on wheels.

    As for those that seem to fear technology. They are probably still using a bow and stake or flint and steel to make fire for light or cooking. I say **** that. I will use my lighter. And don’t get me started on calculators and remote controls. Hell I could stab a stick in the ground and tell time or which way is north. But technology is good and not always good. Look at what it has done to the latest generation of useless.

    Some of us don’t always use a chisel and stone to make notes. I think I will put down my phone now. Lol. My Russian Vodka is kicking in strong.

    Cheers!