What receiver to power the Polk LSiM series?

F1nut · May 2019

I'm a firm believer of amping as many channels as you want, all speakers benefit from a powerful amp whether they are playing music or movies, one is not more important than the other and both deserve the benefits of good power. The point is to have all of your speakers operating to their full potential.

No one said one was more important than the other. It was stated that 2 channel music is far more demanding than home theater, which is fact.

All speakers benefit from a powerful amp, eh? So you think the rears, which are putting out nothing but ambient sound benefit too?

Geoff4rfc · May 2019

All speakers benefit from a powerful amp, eh? So you think the rears, which are putting out nothing but ambient sound benefit too?

I get more from my rear set up than ambient. Whether the 703's or the A9's in the rear, musical scores come through along with the mains and wides. Of course trains planes and automobiles and flying bullets and shrapnel whizzing past your head could account for ambient, when using the A9's in the rear channel, in incredible amount of bass is offered up, like having a sub behind the seats.

And of course, using a pre-pro, if I don't have them amped, I get no sound at all

joecoulson · May 2019

F1nut wrote: »

.... It was stated that 2 channel music is far more demanding than home theater, which is fact.

Yep. Bingo!

Landmonster · May 2019

Are there any advantages to going with a higher end receiver than the RXA1080 if I plan to add amps to the preouts?

In other words, would a 2080 or Denon of some kind sound better if they were hooked to the same emotiva amp?

joecoulson · May 2019

IMO no, and I have a Marantz, if I had the Yamaha and it had the features I wanted, and of course pre outs, I personally would be fine. This is assuming it's for HT only.

mdaudioguy · May 2019

Landmonster wrote: »

Are there any advantages to going with a higher end receiver than the RXA1080 if I plan to add amps to the preouts?

In other words, would a 2080 or Denon of some kind sound better if they were hooked to the same emotiva amp?

Well, there's a reason they have a 2080 and it costs more, and a 3080 that costs even more. However, it's repeated by several others that the 1080 is a very good AVR. You'll have no issues there, but if you've got money to burn...

Good luck with deciding!

Landmonster · May 2019

joecoulson wrote: »

IMO no, and I have a Marantz, if I had the Yamaha and it had the features I wanted, and of course pre outs, I personally would be fine. This is assuming it's for HT only.

Please clarify this statement. What would be different about music needs?

Landmonster · May 2019

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Landmonster wrote: »

Are there any advantages to going with a higher end receiver than the RXA1080 if I plan to add amps to the preouts?

In other words, would a 2080 or Denon of some kind sound better if they were hooked to the same emotiva amp?

Well, there's a reason they have a 2080 and it costs more, and a 3080 that costs even more. However, it's repeated by several others that the 1080 is a very good AVR. You'll have no issues there, but if you've got money to burn... Good luck with deciding!

Yes I understand that they cost more... but my understanding was that the primary reason for that price increase was that the 2080 and 3080 have more channels, and substantially more watts per channel.

I was asking about using one of these as a pre-amp, letting actual amplifiers do all the amplification. Is there a real sound quality difference there among these 3?

If amps are taken out of the equation.... then I would assume it comes down to build-quality, DACs, and other processing abilities.

mdaudioguy · May 2019

Landmonster wrote: »

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Landmonster wrote: »

Are there any advantages to going with a higher end receiver than the RXA1080 if I plan to add amps to the preouts?

In other words, would a 2080 or Denon of some kind sound better if they were hooked to the same emotiva amp?

Well, there's a reason they have a 2080 and it costs more, and a 3080 that costs even more. However, it's repeated by several others that the 1080 is a very good AVR. You'll have no issues there, but if you've got money to burn... Good luck with deciding!

I was asking about using one of these as a pre-amp, letting actual amplifiers do all the amplification. Is there a real sound quality difference there among these 3?

Although it's not impossible for there to be continued improvements in the sound quality at the highest end of their line, it's not likely a significant difference. The 1xxx level and above perform very well as pre-amps. If you want better in the Yamaha line, you have to go here: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/cx-a5200_u/index.html
Why pay for amps you're not gonna use?

Just yanking your chain a little. There are so many ways to do this. I think the 1080 will do what you want and should, most importantly, put a smile on your face!

Landmonster · May 2019

Okay. I don't know how trustworthy this site is, but it says the Denon 3500 and 4500 have a superior sound quality to the RX-A1080.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/yamaha-rx-a1080

Do you agree/disagree?

"The performance is even and well rounded, offering the same character to an effect that switches across speakers, beginning behind our right shoulder and settling at the front left.
Also consider

Denon AVR-X3500H - £900

It does, however, find itself a step behind the Denon range that leads the class in this area of the market for home cinema amplifiers and receivers. It isn’t that the RX-A1080 is lacking in detail, but more about its organisation, timing and dynamics. It is capable, but still some way from the best on offer.

Even Denon’s AVR-X3500H, which undercuts this Yamaha by £400, is more expressive with its dialogue, offers greater punch and a more confident organisation of the impressive amount of sonic detail each has at its disposal.

The contrast is perhaps most stark when listening to music, where the RX-A1080 is less rhythmically adept and struggles to match its main competitors’ levels of expression or entertainment."

mdaudioguy · May 2019

Opinions, opinions. This is Ford vs Chevy. They're both fine within this segment of the market. Saying, "struggles to match" is funny, because what does that really mean? I've heard all the consumer-grade brands, and generally have a preference for Yamaha, but Denon is always a solid performer. Denon's design it's a little more straight-forward, plug-and-play, set it and forget it. Yamaha is famous for its DSP modes, if you like to experiment with tweaking the sound in your room.

Sadly, it's not easy to compare them in a store anymore, with the speakers of your choosing, so you're stuck with starting out by reading opinions. You might be happy with the first one you buy, or you might be like someone I know and go through 10+ models across 3 systems over several years. Hey, I like to experiment!

I settled on 2 Yamahas and a Marantz in 3 very different HT configurations. I also have experience installing for others, and I most often choose Denon, which has never failed to leave people with smiles on their faces. YMMV.

joecoulson · May 2019

DSkip wrote: »

Landmonster wrote: »

joecoulson wrote: »

IMO no, and I have a Marantz, if I had the Yamaha and it had the features I wanted, and of course pre outs, I personally would be fine. This is assuming it's for HT only.

Please clarify this statement. What would be different about music needs?

It’s difficult to clarify if you’ve never heard a top flight system. A system that excels at music will do movies well but it doesn’t always work the other way around.

Exactly
Like @F1nut said, 2ch is much more demanding ( I think he said in another thread) than HT.

Regardless of which AVR you chose, it’s still one power supply for all channels unless you use external amps. You will find the latter very rewarding.

PSOVLSK · May 2019

Don't overthink the AVR. As @mdaudioguy said, it's basically Ford vs. Chevy. The only way to know which one you'd prefer would be to listen to both of them, preferably in your house, but that's not very realistic. If I were you I'd stick with the Yamaha you already have now. Definitely wouldn't go up any in the Yamaha line if you're thinking of adding an amp later. FWIW, I briefly owned both a Denon and a Yamaha and I preferred the Yamaha.

Geoff4rfc · May 2019

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Landmonster wrote: »

Are there any advantages to going with a higher end receiver than the RXA1080 if I plan to add amps to the preouts?

In other words, would a 2080 or Denon of some kind sound better if they were hooked to the same emotiva amp?

If you want better in the Yamaha line, you have to go here: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/cx-a5200_u/index.html
I think the 1080 will do what you want and should, most importantly, put a smile on your face!

Landmonster wrote: »

Okay. I don't know how trustworthy this site is, but it says the Denon 3500 and 4500 have a superior sound quality to the RX-A1080.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/yamaha-rx-a1080

Do you agree/disagree?

I don't recall if you mentioned if this is your first AVR purchase but I completely agree with your apprehension.

You want the best bang for your buck and only have so much budget to work with!!

When I first got into this only just 10 years ago, where H.T. and 2ch are concerned, I didn't know my A-hole from a hole in the ground. By now, I at least know where my A-hole is because that's where a lot of my hard earned money has gone regarding this hobby

With so many choices out there, I didn't know what sounded like what or which way was the way to go. And I think maybe like you, I was trying to future proof my first purchase so I wouldn't have to upgrade anytime soon.

Let me say now, that by being able to get out to places, visit neighbors or friends if possible to listen to what they have to help your ears learn what does what, would be more beneficial than anything before making purchases.

That being said, you are further ahead of me when I first started, I did not want an amp to start with but I did choose an AVR with pre-outs just in case.

But once I got my feet wet, all I wanted was more. My first AVR was a 7.1 like yours, but I quickly wanted a 9.2 and soon that lust grew to an 11.4.

@mdaudioguy gave you a link, I checked it out. Now for me, and if I were starting with an external amp, that would be my choice. I could start with a 5.1 and grow from there because the available channels would be there waiting for me. Talk about future proofing.

But like I said, that would be me, your mileage may vary, you may very well just want to stick with a 7.1 and go no farther...……...but if you think you might...………..

mrloren · May 2019

Your AVR is good and You won't see much of any sonic improvement going up in the line, it's just more channels.

Adding an amp for me was an eye opening experience. The detail and overall dynamics greatly improved. I was hearing things in music I've never heard before.

I've only had Emotiva in my house. I'm not the super fan boy of Emotiva, I'm just a warehouse manager in SoCal so my wallet won't let me go better. If I could afford a Parasound I'd have one.

some friends and coworkers can afford better gear than I. I've and long listens to Emotiva, MCA, Rotel, Outlaw and Parasound. I can't compare them as all are on different systems. All sound real good but then I do have to consider the total system cost. I have $4k-$5k in my setup while others have a lot more.

Landmonster · May 2019

Okay. Thanks guys. I am probably being a little OCD trying to min/max and analyze everything.

For me, the decision is trying to pick between Yahama and Denon/Marantz. I bought a Pioneer Elite LX-503 at first because it was cheaper and on sale, and had the most power for the money, but I ended up returning it because I wasn't happy with its sound entirely.

I can say that the Yamaha RX-A1080 does sound cleaner, and more detailed than the Pioneer LX503 did. After 1 day of comparing it, I returned the Pioneer the next day. That may sound crazy, but it does provide more detail, even on "Pure Direct" 2ch stereo mode. Because of that, I do wonder how other brands sound... but it's a time-intensive process buying/swapping/testing/returning gear.

As far as my audio history, I have not given my full history in this thread, but I have taken about a 16 year hiatus from home theater. I haven't owned any speakers or AVRs since about 2003.

Back from 2001 to 2003, I owned a pretty cool 5.1 system that was comprised of 4 huge NHT tower speakers (3.3s, and 2.5s, if anyone remembers those), NHT center channel, and a huge Denon receiver. I later added an Odyssey Stratos 2ch amplifier to it for the front 2 channels, and noticed a pretty big jump in performance. I drank the Kool-aid back then, and also had extra-thick Monster cables, a MonsterCable power condition, silver interconnects, and so forth. That system was awesome though.

I remember watching Band of Brothers, and Saving Private Ryan on DVD on that system, and remember the machine-gun fire and explosions feeling like gut punches in the chest.

At that time, Denon seemed like the king of AVRs... that thing was built like a tank and weighed 50lbs. I haven't seen any of them today that are built like that. Yamaha was still well thought-of at the time, but it seemed like Denon it was more popular, so that is what I purchased.

Landmonster · May 2019

mrloren wrote: »

Your AVR is good and You won't see much of any sonic improvement going up in the line, it's just more channels.

Adding an amp for me was an eye opening experience. The detail and overall dynamics greatly improved. I was hearing things in music I've never heard before.

I think you're probably right.

The only changes going up the line aside from more watts and more channels, are DAC changes as follows:

RX-A1080 has.... 1 SABRE 32-bit ES9007S DAC
RX-A2080 has.... dual SABRE 32-bit ES9007S DACs
RX-A3080 has.... ESS 384 kHz / 32-bit SABRE PRO Premier DAC™ ES9026PRO (for main 7 channels) and SABRE ES9007S DAC

So they all share the same 9007s DAC, but the 2080 has an extra one, and the 3080 adds some kind of 9026PRO DAC. They are all ESS 32-bits, at 384 kHZ though.

I don't know how they compare to the Denons, which use an AKM 192 kHz 32-bit, seen here: https://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK4458VN

It seems like the DAC would be an important feature in the AVRs to pay attention to.

It is worth noting that all the Yamaha 60's and 70's series have 24-bit DACs, whereas the Denons have had 32-bit DACs for a few years.

BlueFox · May 2019

Give it a rest, buy something, and listen to it for a few months. Then make a decision whether to continue or upgrade. Without any ‘ears on’ experience then all knowledge is basically irrelevant.

cfrizz · May 2019

You say that the Yamaha RX-A1080 does sound cleaner, and more detailed which is good, it has preouts to add separate amplification, and you like the sound. So stick with that. What will give you the greatest clarity will be adding a separate amp.

Just like Loren, that was the biggest surprise I got when I originally added a Parasound 1500A 205wpc 2 channel amp. It didn't matter where I had the volume knob at, everything was crystal clear. There was no going back to just a receiver powering my speakers from that point on. Now I have a Classe 200wpc 5 channel amp on my speakers, having replaced a 20 year old Sunfire 5 channel amp.

When funds allow, add the amp, and a sub or two sit back and enjoy.

rooftop59 · May 2019

I have owned an older version of your yammie (1010) and now have a denon avr x-4200w. I do like the denon slightly better, but for me it was mainly about the extra channels and the fact that I got the denon on eBay for cheap.

With all due respect to @PSOVLSK this is more like Toyota vs Honda lol. We went back and forth on a Highlander or pilot for my wife. Liked the look and feel of the highlander slightly better, but the new pilot has slightly more cargo room, which makes a big difference with 4 kiddos, so we have a pilot. If you have 1-3 kids however, it would pretty much be a toss up and most people would be happy with either.

Same with Denon and Yamaha. If one doesn’t have a feature that you really need, then just keep what you have and rock on!

pitdogg2 · May 2019

Landmonster wrote: »

The only changes going up the line aside from more watts and more channels, are DAC changes as follows:
RX-A1080 has.... 1 SABRE 32-bit ES9007S DAC

RX-A2080 has.... dual SABRE 32-bit ES9007S DACs

RX-A3080 has.... ESS 384 kHz / 32-bit SABRE PRO Premier DAC™ ES9026PRO (for main 7 channels) and SABRE ES9007S DAC

How the dacs are implemented means as much as the dac itself. I tend to gravitate to the middle of the line in most cases unless the top has a feature I know for sure I'll use.

jeremymarcinko · May 2019

Keep the Yammie add the Outlaw 5000...120 All channels driven, and 170 2ch driven. At $649 you can’t go wrong.

You’ll get to hear the differences a good amp will make and you can always upgrade from there if you think you want more.

mrloren · May 2019

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

Keep the Yammie add the Outlaw 5000...120 All channels driven, and 170 2ch driven. At $649 you can’t go wrong.

You’ll get to hear the differences a good amp will make and you can always upgrade from there if you think you want more.

That Outlaw 5000 120WX5 is a gross understatement. Outlaw is very conservative in there published power ratings. Very nice amp for the price. When I got my XPA3 That one was on my list. One I had a listen to even made Klipsch sound good.

Milito · May 2019

I got an Outlaw 5000 to connect to my RX-A2070 and run my S55's and S30 off of it. Very pleased with it.

Here's a review: https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000

Landmonster · May 2019

Thanks for all the comments guys.

I'm probably obsessing over this too much, and you're probably right.... a good amp will matter much more in the long-run over whichever receiver I choose.

I will comment on a few relevant things, which I'm sure I have addressed yet in the thread.

1) I can never really go beyond a 5.2 system in my current room, due to the limitations of the side walls. I could perhaps add 2 Atmos ceiling speakers, but not 2 side surrounds. (One wall is a window, the opposite side wall is open to the kitchen... so a speaker there would be weird) Therefore, I can't even utilize the decoding on a 9.2 receiver until I move to a larger home with a dedicated theater room.

2) The only other real consideration-options for a different receiver would be a Denon X4500h, or a Yahama RXA-2080, just due to local deals I have seen, and me wanting to keep the price reasonable (~$1,000 or less) on this component. I got a local deal on the RX-A1080 ($558), but my local Fry's has Denon x4500h for $680 after discounts.

3) The main things I want out of a receiver are:

The receiver must be capable (on it's own) of powering at least 3 speakers (703 x 2, and 706c as center)
Give the utmost in sound quality from a a current all-in-one AVR (i.e., offer the latest 32-bit DACs, best build quality, best implementation, best SQ specs for AVRs, etc)
However, I also would like the receiver to have the latest gen audio formats and 4K video pass through... so that rules out some of the older receivers with great powe and specs, like the old Denon tanks.
The receiver must be capable of a pre-amp output for every channel, without somehow degrading the signal to the amp, or reducing its potential in some way.

Landmonster · May 2019

A logical follow up question is this.

Have amplifier technologies changed much in the past 10-15 years?
If not, wouldn't it make sense to buy a good used amp?
In the setup of my proposed system: 2 707s + 2 703s + 1 706c..... would it make the most sense to add a powerful 2 channel amp for main channels (~250 watts), or a 3ch amp for the center (~200 wants)?
Aside from Emotiva, what are some good used brands to look at? (sound quality and power being the main goals)

Milito · May 2019

Check here, It's where I got my 2070. They also have an 2080.

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/avreceiver/home-audio/receivers-amps/home-theater-receivers/1.html?brand_f[]=YAMAHA&number_channels[]=9

They also have other brands.

mrloren · May 2019

My Denon has good power, drives my 6 surround/height speakers nicely.

I like my Emo, I was looking at the used market in SoCal kind of sucks. Look for
Parasound
B&K
Anthem
Rotel
Outlaw Audio

There was a used Parasound A31 going for $2300 which was still way over my budget

mark090852 · May 2019

Landmonster wrote: »

A logical follow up question is this.

Have amplifier technologies changed much in the past 10-15 years?

If not, wouldn't it make sense to buy a good used amp?

In the setup of my proposed system: 2 707s + 2 703s + 1 706c..... would it make the most sense to add a powerful 2 channel amp for main channels (~250 watts), or a 3ch amp for the center (~200 wants)?

Aside from Emotiva, what are some good used brands to look at? (sound quality and power being the main goals)

I would also recommend Emotiva. I use one with some of my gear, and it has a very nice sound. Great value for your money and they have excellent customer service.

jayman_1975 · May 2019

Get yourself a used Cambridge Audio Azur 651r or even better, 751r. You will have perma grin for a very long time. I have had many different variations of receiver/amps, pre/pro and amps. The 651r receiver I have now is hands down the best receiver I have ever owned as far. It will be a long time before you want to add an external amp to it.....but when you do, it has a setting to shut off just the front left and right internal amps or all of the internal amps, making it a heck of a pre/pro.

What receiver to power the Polk LSiM series?

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