Tilting towers to get tweeter ear level
Anyone have a solid process for this? I'm toying with raising and lowering the back feet on my 705's. I feel like there is a bit of change to the quality of sound. I'm still in the first few hundred hours but occasionally feel like some things sound a bit harsh on the high end. I've not applied any acoustic treatments to the room yet which might help as well. Thanks!
According to Robert Harley in his book, The Complete Guide to High End Audio:
"Typically, the loudspeaker will be brightest (i.e. have the most treble) when your ears are at the same height as the tweeters or on the tweeter axis. Most tweeters are positioned between 32" and 40" from the floor to coincide with typical listening heights........The degree to which the sound changes with height varies greatly with the loudspeaker. Some models have a broad range over which little change is audible; others can exhibit large tonal changes when you merely straighten your back when listening...."
According to Robert Harley in his book, The Complete Guide to High End Audio:
"Typically, the loudspeaker will be brightest (i.e. have the most treble) when your ears are at the same height as the tweeters or on the tweeter axis. Most tweeters are positioned between 32" and 40" from the floor to coincide with typical listening heights........The degree to which the sound changes with height varies greatly with the loudspeaker. Some models have a broad range over which little change is audible; others can exhibit large tonal changes when you merely straighten your back when listening...."
Comments
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Lower your ears or raise the speakers using spikes.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You can tilt them and experiment, nothing is written in stone. However, the 705's are not an inherently bright speaker to begin with. You may want to look elsewhere in the system. Source components, material, cables, etc.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I can't put my finger on it but it might just be getting used to new speakers and experiencing a bit of ear fatigue. Right now they are toed in at the listening position and I have an area rug between the listening position about 13 feet away. They sound great otherwise.
Receiver:
Denon x4400h (Audyssey is off, Speakers both set as Large)
Speakers:
705 Left and Right
706c Center
Cables:
Sewell Silverback 12 AWG oxygen free 6' banana plugs
Surge:
Tripp Lite TLP1208TEL -
Just my opinion, but those Sewell cables aren't helping matters. What are you using to play music with ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Right now just my LG UBK90 UHD player. I've tested a bunch of UHD Blu Rays and audio cd's. But looking to improve on that as time goes by.
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With audyssey off, the x4400h gives you access to simple tone controls. Does turning down the treble help at all?
Also, you can always manually set the eq when audyssey is off. You can also use the audyssey curve by using "curve copy" and then making your own adjustments to that curve. Of course, curve copy is not the same as audyssey since it does not copy all 10,000 corrections that the calibration makes.
Another thing is that the calibration automatically does a "BBC dip," which is a dip at around 2khz to offset what audyssey claims is "harshness" resulting from the transition from the midrange to the tweeter. It's also known as "midrange compensation." They claim that they have never encountered a speaker that didn't need it. So, in theory that might be what you're hearing.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347863-Midrange-Compensation
Also, the x4400h has the option of using the multeq editor app, which gives you graphs of the calibration results before and after the corrections. It might tell you where things get peaky. It allows you to save as many configurations as you like. So, you could if you had the time and inclination experiment with rug / furniture placement and see what impact that has on the response graph.
It's understandable why you wouldn't want dynamic eq or dynamic volume turned on. But you can have audyssey engaged while having both of those processing effects turned off.
Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
With audyssey off, the x4400h gives you access to simple tone controls. Does turning down the treble help at all?
Also, you can always manually set the eq when audyssey is off. You can also use the audyssey curve by using "curve copy" and then making your own adjustments to that curve. Of course, curve copy is not the same as audyssey since it does not copy all 10,000 corrections that the calibration makes.
Another thing is that the calibration automatically does a "BBC dip," which is a dip at around 2khz to offset what audyssey claims is "harshness" resulting from the transition from the midrange to the tweeter. It's also known as "midrange compensation." They claim that they have never encountered a speaker that didn't need it. So, in theory that might be what you're hearing.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347863-Midrange-Compensation
Also, the x4400h has the option of using the multeq editor app, which gives you graphs of the calibration results before and after the corrections. It might tell you where things get peaky. It allows you to save as many configurations as you like. So, you could if you had the time and inclination experiment with rug / furniture placement and see what impact that has on the response graph.
It's understandable why you wouldn't want dynamic eq or dynamic volume turned on. But you can have audyssey engaged while having both of those processing effects turned off.
Thanks I ran Audyssey and playing with that now. Appears that the bass is a bit tigther and some notable general improvements. Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks! -
Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks!
Audyssey should be available for all inputs. I don't see why it wouldn't be engaged while watching tv.
Yes it's $20 for the editor app for android and ios.
Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks!
Audyssey should be available for all inputs. I don't see why it wouldn't be engaged while watching tv.
Yes it's $20 for the editor app for android and ios.
Found out was using Direct vs Auto. I get Audyssey now. I will check out getting the app. I'm noting the sound is generally flatter with it on, and caught some distortion in the intro of Blade Runner 2049 using Dynamic EQ. So for now just using MultEQ X32 without anything else. Sure this is a larger topic of discussion but do not want to derail the original topic too much. Thanks -
Everything affects everything.
You can be off on levelness of the speakers vertically from top to bottom with just one speaker and throw off your sound stage. You can have one speaker tilted backward or forward even by less than an 1/8 of an inch and you will throw off the sound stage. Same with toe in. Same with distance.
Please allow me to repeat myself. Everything affects everything.
If you have ear fatigue, it *may* be your gear. It may be that you are located too close to the speakers. It may be that your room is too "active". It may be that your settings are off, it may be that your interconnects are exemplifying the upper end of the frequency spectrum. It may be speaker location/tilt/toe/levelness/distance/proximity to walls/objects.
Everything affects everything. Have I mentioned that before?
Try positioning the speakers at a plane (Tilted backwards) that puts the direction of the tweeter above the outside of your ears. Try 2", then slip another CD under the front and try 4" above your ear. (Or you can simply adjust your spikes up and down). Trial and error will be your best friend. If nothing seems to work?
Try putting in some Copper cables (IC's) versus Silver based, try adjusting your settings. Try everything that other folks here suggest. Main thing is that you need to keep experimenting and then get back to us with your findings. There is a lot of knowledge on this board (Even Lightman1) and most of us are not shy in trying to steer you in the right direction. Just let us know what you find out and post your findings.
You will eventually tame the upper frequencies, or at the very least, find out where your problem stems from....so you can adjust accordingly.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
~ I have found excellence ~
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
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Tom I have to ask, what does everything affect again?..
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Glad you asked. Many folks miss this point. Pay attention if you haven't before....
Everything.
Class dismissed.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
~ I have found excellence ~
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
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This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.
The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.
You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.
Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.
Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.
Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.
Post edited by sponger onDenon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.
The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.
You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.
Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.
Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.
Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.
I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it. Because I receive phase error on the right when running the calibration and I had to ignore it. The wiring was correct. I would love to add some bass back post the Audyssey calibration. Because I'm not using a sub and only the 705 and 706c. I suppose I understand now when these speakers were referred to as warm. I actually like the bass very much prior to the room correction. -
pawelmwo wrote:
I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it.
The phase errors can be ignored just like with the avr calibration. All LSiM speakers in the 5.0 configuration in that example had those phase error messages.
The app will let you designate at exactly which point the room correction takes effect. So, you could set it so that it starts at, say, 100hz and above, leaving lower bass unmodified.
Have you tried turning up the "restorer" levels to get more bass?
Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.
The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.
You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.
Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.
Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.
Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.
I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it. Because I receive phase error on the right when running the calibration and I had to ignore it. The wiring was correct. I would love to add some bass back post the Audyssey calibration. Because I'm not using a sub and only the 705 and 706c. I suppose I understand now when these speakers were referred to as warm. I actually like the bass very much prior to the room correction.
So...tweek the settings in your menu to get more bass. The calibration is just a guideline, it's not written in stone to abide by.
First thing I'd check is your speaker levels. Set the fronts back to 0 and adjust from there in your listening position.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Changing to Flat is meant as per them if you are seated very close to your speakers. The Audyssey Flat/Music target curve has no roll-off. This curve should be used for movies if you are seated in the near field, if your room has a lot of high frequency absorption due to acoustic treatments, if your room is very small or highly treated or if you are using THX Re-EQ (which introduces its own roll-off). Did you leave on Dynamic Volume? be sure to turn this off this is equal to a Loudness button. Then you will need to do some reading because you can leave the Reference setting on.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level
TV room- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Signal Dig Coax, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung QN75Q7DR Qled 75" tv, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Marantz DV-4200 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Nintendo Switch and Xbox 360 Family room Samsung 55JS7000 Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV, Polk Magnifi Max. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Rotel RDV 1045 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium, Neutron App or Amazon Music to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e -
This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.
The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.
You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.
Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.
Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.
Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.
Bought the app last night and ran it this morning. Here are my results. The room has a small area rug, couch and some furniture. I've also got some vaulted ceilings. The speakers are about a foot away from the wall. LR are toed in towards the listening position forming a V shape.
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Maybe the vaulted ceilings helped a bit. Probably a larger room too. The graphs I posted start off with more needing to be done.
Hopefully the app allowed you to manage the issues you were encountering. With a full set of pre-outs on the back of the x4400h, your next move would go without saying I suppose.Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
Maybe the vaulted ceilings helped a bit. Probably a larger room too. The graphs I posted start off with more needing to be done.
Hopefully the app allowed you to manage the issues you were encountering. With a full set of pre-outs on the back of the x4400h, your next move would go without saying I suppose.
Bass is definitely tighter and I'm hearing more details and balance. It does appear a lot more neutral. I'll give it a few days to settle and see how I like it. I realized I had +3db in my tone levels across the board prior to running Audyssey. If I removed it would it mess with the results or is it just a linear decrease to the calibration? -
Was the app difficult to use?TV room- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Signal Dig Coax, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung QN75Q7DR Qled 75" tv, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Marantz DV-4200 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Nintendo Switch and Xbox 360 Family room Samsung 55JS7000 Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV, Polk Magnifi Max. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Rotel RDV 1045 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium, Neutron App or Amazon Music to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e
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Was the app difficult to use?
No it was very easy. And you can even change the speaker sizes in the app after. It also opens up Audyssey settings that are not available on the receiver. Can adjust the results and re-upload to the receiver. Very cool -
I'm debating buying it. It's 27$ cad. It would be nice to see what it could do for me before spending the $TV room- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Signal Dig Coax, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung QN75Q7DR Qled 75" tv, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Marantz DV-4200 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Nintendo Switch and Xbox 360 Family room Samsung 55JS7000 Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV, Polk Magnifi Max. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Rotel RDV 1045 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium, Neutron App or Amazon Music to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e
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pawelmwo wrote:I realized I had +3db in my tone levels across the board prior to running Audyssey. If I removed it would it mess with the results or is it just a linear decrease to the calibration?
Tone controls are overridden by audyssey. The calibration ignores any existing settings.Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels. But it seems to balance lower volumes to a similar response. The tradeoff if any appears to be more bass and slightly muddy sound.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level -
How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels. But it seems to balance lower volumes to a similar response. The tradeoff if any appears to be more bass and slightly muddy sound.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level
I've tried them and don't like them. I never come close to reference levels but in general we have no issues hearing the dialogue.TV room- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Signal Dig Coax, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung QN75Q7DR Qled 75" tv, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Marantz DV-4200 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Nintendo Switch and Xbox 360 Family room Samsung 55JS7000 Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV, Polk Magnifi Max. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Rotel RDV 1045 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium, Neutron App or Amazon Music to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e -
How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels.
It's generally a given that playback without added processing is going to be less obfuscating especially when the processing is as overt as dynamic eq. So, purists will never make exceptions for it. But, at least from my experiences, the muddying properties can be less of an issue depending on the DACs and analog stage found in the avr. In the upper echelons of Denon avrs like the 6xxx and up, the step up in design and components does make for a less intrusive dynamic eq listening experience. It seems that way to me anyway. For example, the 6400 has discrete channels and monolithic construction allowing for improved L/R separation. The 7xxx and 8xxx have AKM 4490EQ dacs which are stereo dacs arranged in multiples for multi-channel use. So, the improvements in imaging and detail trickle-down to the mitigation of the inherent drawbacks of digital processing I suppose. I've spent some time listening to the x7200 and have found dynamic eq with that avr to be more enjoyable than with the x4400, and so I've speculated as to why that is the case. The aforementioned is my best guess.Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775 -
How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels.
It's generally a given that playback without added processing is going to be less obfuscating especially when the processing is as overt as dynamic eq. So, purists will never make exceptions for it. But, at least from my experiences, the muddying properties can be less of an issue depending on the DACs and analog stage found in the avr. In the upper echelons of Denon avrs like the 6xxx and up, the step up in design and components does make for a less intrusive dynamic eq listening experience. It seems that way to me anyway. For example, the 6400 has discrete channels and monolithic construction allowing for improved L/R separation. The 7xxx and 8xxx have AKM 4490EQ dacs which are stereo dacs arranged in multiples for multi-channel use. So, the improvements in imaging and detail trickle-down to the mitigation of the inherent drawbacks of digital processing I suppose. I've spent some time listening to the x7200 and have found dynamic eq with that avr to be more enjoyable than with the x4400, and so I've speculated as to why that is the case. The aforementioned is my best guess.
I've been doing some testing and it seems to vary by content. There is notable distortion, muddiness and or overwhelming bass especially on low bit rate streaming content. Results vary with the different reference level offsets. Based on the recommendation of another board I'm testing Audyssey Flat in combination with Cinema EQ. I don't think I'm going to stick with Dynamic EQ. Based on that notion of the driving power you mentioned I think I'll stick with the x4400 and consider adding an amp down the line.
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Compounding the issue is the LSiM being the uncannily revealing speaker that it is. So, whatever nagging nuances of imperfection present in the audio stream are going to be even more difficult to ignore than otherwise. Adding more power will bring out the staging and improve imaging, but probably won't do much to make poor recording formats sound less poor.Denon X7200WA
LSiM 705 703 704c
Denon DP 400
Yamaha CDC 775
