Tilting towers to get tweeter ear level

pawelmwo · January 14

Anyone have a solid process for this? I'm toying with raising and lowering the back feet on my 705's. I feel like there is a bit of change to the quality of sound. I'm still in the first few hundred hours but occasionally feel like some things sound a bit harsh on the high end. I've not applied any acoustic treatments to the room yet which might help as well. Thanks!

According to Robert Harley in his book, The Complete Guide to High End Audio:

"Typically, the loudspeaker will be brightest (i.e. have the most treble) when your ears are at the same height as the tweeters or on the tweeter axis. Most tweeters are positioned between 32" and 40" from the floor to coincide with typical listening heights........The degree to which the sound changes with height varies greatly with the loudspeaker. Some models have a broad range over which little change is audible; others can exhibit large tonal changes when you merely straighten your back when listening...."

F1nut · January 14

Lower your ears or raise the speakers using spikes.

tonyb · January 14

You can tilt them and experiment, nothing is written in stone. However, the 705's are not an inherently bright speaker to begin with. You may want to look elsewhere in the system. Source components, material, cables, etc.

pawelmwo · January 14

I can't put my finger on it but it might just be getting used to new speakers and experiencing a bit of ear fatigue. Right now they are toed in at the listening position and I have an area rug between the listening position about 13 feet away. They sound great otherwise.

Receiver:
Denon x4400h (Audyssey is off, Speakers both set as Large)

Speakers:
705 Left and Right
706c Center

Cables:
Sewell Silverback 12 AWG oxygen free 6' banana plugs

Surge:
Tripp Lite TLP1208TEL

tonyb · January 14

Just my opinion, but those Sewell cables aren't helping matters. What are you using to play music with ?

pawelmwo · January 14

Right now just my LG UBK90 UHD player. I've tested a bunch of UHD Blu Rays and audio cd's. But looking to improve on that as time goes by.

sponger · January 14

With audyssey off, the x4400h gives you access to simple tone controls. Does turning down the treble help at all?

Also, you can always manually set the eq when audyssey is off. You can also use the audyssey curve by using "curve copy" and then making your own adjustments to that curve. Of course, curve copy is not the same as audyssey since it does not copy all 10,000 corrections that the calibration makes.

Another thing is that the calibration automatically does a "BBC dip," which is a dip at around 2khz to offset what audyssey claims is "harshness" resulting from the transition from the midrange to the tweeter. It's also known as "midrange compensation." They claim that they have never encountered a speaker that didn't need it. So, in theory that might be what you're hearing.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347863-Midrange-Compensation

Also, the x4400h has the option of using the multeq editor app, which gives you graphs of the calibration results before and after the corrections. It might tell you where things get peaky. It allows you to save as many configurations as you like. So, you could if you had the time and inclination experiment with rug / furniture placement and see what impact that has on the response graph.

It's understandable why you wouldn't want dynamic eq or dynamic volume turned on. But you can have audyssey engaged while having both of those processing effects turned off.

pawelmwo · January 14

sponger wrote: »

With audyssey off, the x4400h gives you access to simple tone controls. Does turning down the treble help at all?

Also, you can always manually set the eq when audyssey is off. You can also use the audyssey curve by using "curve copy" and then making your own adjustments to that curve. Of course, curve copy is not the same as audyssey since it does not copy all 10,000 corrections that the calibration makes.

Another thing is that the calibration automatically does a "BBC dip," which is a dip at around 2khz to offset what audyssey claims is "harshness" resulting from the transition from the midrange to the tweeter. It's also known as "midrange compensation." They claim that they have never encountered a speaker that didn't need it. So, in theory that might be what you're hearing.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347863-Midrange-Compensation

Also, the x4400h has the option of using the multeq editor app, which gives you graphs of the calibration results before and after the corrections. It might tell you where things get peaky. It allows you to save as many configurations as you like. So, you could if you had the time and inclination experiment with rug / furniture placement and see what impact that has on the response graph.

It's understandable why you wouldn't want dynamic eq or dynamic volume turned on. But you can have audyssey engaged while having both of those processing effects turned off.

Thanks I ran Audyssey and playing with that now. Appears that the bass is a bit tigther and some notable general improvements. Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks!

sponger · January 14

pawelmwo wrote: »

Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks!

Audyssey should be available for all inputs. I don't see why it wouldn't be engaged while watching tv.

Yes it's $20 for the editor app for android and ios.

pawelmwo · January 14

sponger wrote: »

pawelmwo wrote: »

Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks!

Audyssey should be available for all inputs. I don't see why it wouldn't be engaged while watching tv.

Yes it's $20 for the editor app for android and ios.

Found out was using Direct vs Auto. I get Audyssey now. I will check out getting the app. I'm noting the sound is generally flatter with it on, and caught some distortion in the intro of Blade Runner 2049 using Dynamic EQ. So for now just using MultEQ X32 without anything else. Sure this is a larger topic of discussion but do not want to derail the original topic too much. Thanks

treitz3 · January 14

Everything affects everything.

You can be off on levelness of the speakers vertically from top to bottom with just one speaker and throw off your sound stage. You can have one speaker tilted backward or forward even by less than an 1/8 of an inch and you will throw off the sound stage. Same with toe in. Same with distance.

Please allow me to repeat myself. Everything affects everything.

If you have ear fatigue, it *may* be your gear. It may be that you are located too close to the speakers. It may be that your room is too "active". It may be that your settings are off, it may be that your interconnects are exemplifying the upper end of the frequency spectrum. It may be speaker location/tilt/toe/levelness/distance/proximity to walls/objects.

Everything affects everything. Have I mentioned that before?

Try positioning the speakers at a plane (Tilted backwards) that puts the direction of the tweeter above the outside of your ears. Try 2", then slip another CD under the front and try 4" above your ear. (Or you can simply adjust your spikes up and down). Trial and error will be your best friend. If nothing seems to work?

Try putting in some Copper cables (IC's) versus Silver based, try adjusting your settings. Try everything that other folks here suggest. Main thing is that you need to keep experimenting and then get back to us with your findings. There is a lot of knowledge on this board (Even Lightman1) and most of us are not shy in trying to steer you in the right direction. Just let us know what you find out and post your findings.

You will eventually tame the upper frequencies, or at the very least, find out where your problem stems from....so you can adjust accordingly.

Tom

joecoulson · January 14

Tom I have to ask, what does everything affect again?..

treitz3 · January 14

Glad you asked. Many folks miss this point. Pay attention if you haven't before....

Everything.

Class dismissed.

Tom

sponger · January 14

This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.

The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.

You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.

Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.

Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.

Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.

pawelmwo · January 15

sponger wrote: »

This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.

The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.

You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.

Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.

Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.

Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.

I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it. Because I receive phase error on the right when running the calibration and I had to ignore it. The wiring was correct. I would love to add some bass back post the Audyssey calibration. Because I'm not using a sub and only the 705 and 706c. I suppose I understand now when these speakers were referred to as warm. I actually like the bass very much prior to the room correction.

sponger · January 15

pawelmwo wrote:

I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it.

The phase errors can be ignored just like with the avr calibration. All LSiM speakers in the 5.0 configuration in that example had those phase error messages.

The app will let you designate at exactly which point the room correction takes effect. So, you could set it so that it starts at, say, 100hz and above, leaving lower bass unmodified.

Have you tried turning up the "restorer" levels to get more bass?

tonyb · January 15

pawelmwo wrote: »

sponger wrote: »

This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.

The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.

You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.

Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.

Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.

Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.

I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it. Because I receive phase error on the right when running the calibration and I had to ignore it. The wiring was correct. I would love to add some bass back post the Audyssey calibration. Because I'm not using a sub and only the 705 and 706c. I suppose I understand now when these speakers were referred to as warm. I actually like the bass very much prior to the room correction.

So...tweek the settings in your menu to get more bass. The calibration is just a guideline, it's not written in stone to abide by.

First thing I'd check is your speaker levels. Set the fronts back to 0 and adjust from there in your listening position.

Willow · January 15

Changing to Flat is meant as per them if you are seated very close to your speakers. The Audyssey Flat/Music target curve has no roll-off. This curve should be used for movies if you are seated in the near field, if your room has a lot of high frequency absorption due to acoustic treatments, if your room is very small or highly treated or if you are using THX Re-EQ (which introduces its own roll-off). Did you leave on Dynamic Volume? be sure to turn this off this is equal to a Loudness button. Then you will need to do some reading because you can leave the Reference setting on.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

pawelmwo · January 15

sponger wrote: »

This is the audyssey graph for a 705 powered by an x4400h in a 12x15 carpeted room with a couch, a small coffee table and a pouf somewhere in there too. He contemplated removing the pouf for the calibration but then decided to "keep it real" since it was going to be there anyway under normal listening conditions.

The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.

You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.

Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.

Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.

Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.

Bought the app last night and ran it this morning. Here are my results. The room has a small area rug, couch and some furniture. I've also got some vaulted ceilings. The speakers are about a foot away from the wall. LR are toed in towards the listening position forming a V shape.

sponger · January 15

Maybe the vaulted ceilings helped a bit. Probably a larger room too. The graphs I posted start off with more needing to be done.

Hopefully the app allowed you to manage the issues you were encountering. With a full set of pre-outs on the back of the x4400h, your next move would go without saying I suppose.

pawelmwo · January 16

sponger wrote: »

Maybe the vaulted ceilings helped a bit. Probably a larger room too. The graphs I posted start off with more needing to be done.

Hopefully the app allowed you to manage the issues you were encountering. With a full set of pre-outs on the back of the x4400h, your next move would go without saying I suppose.

Bass is definitely tighter and I'm hearing more details and balance. It does appear a lot more neutral. I'll give it a few days to settle and see how I like it. I realized I had +3db in my tone levels across the board prior to running Audyssey. If I removed it would it mess with the results or is it just a linear decrease to the calibration?

Willow · January 16

Was the app difficult to use?

pawelmwo · January 16

Willow wrote: »

Was the app difficult to use?

No it was very easy. And you can even change the speaker sizes in the app after. It also opens up Audyssey settings that are not available on the receiver. Can adjust the results and re-upload to the receiver. Very cool

Willow · January 16

I'm debating buying it. It's 27$ cad. It would be nice to see what it could do for me before spending the $

sponger · January 16

pawelmwo wrote:

I realized I had +3db in my tone levels across the board prior to running Audyssey. If I removed it would it mess with the results or is it just a linear decrease to the calibration?

Tone controls are overridden by audyssey. The calibration ignores any existing settings.

pawelmwo · January 17

How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels. But it seems to balance lower volumes to a similar response. The tradeoff if any appears to be more bass and slightly muddy sound.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

Willow · January 17

pawelmwo wrote: »

How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels. But it seems to balance lower volumes to a similar response. The tradeoff if any appears to be more bass and slightly muddy sound.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

I've tried them and don't like them. I never come close to reference levels but in general we have no issues hearing the dialogue.

sponger · January 17

pawelmwo wrote: »

How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels.

It's generally a given that playback without added processing is going to be less obfuscating especially when the processing is as overt as dynamic eq. So, purists will never make exceptions for it. But, at least from my experiences, the muddying properties can be less of an issue depending on the DACs and analog stage found in the avr. In the upper echelons of Denon avrs like the 6xxx and up, the step up in design and components does make for a less intrusive dynamic eq listening experience. It seems that way to me anyway. For example, the 6400 has discrete channels and monolithic construction allowing for improved L/R separation. The 7xxx and 8xxx have AKM 4490EQ dacs which are stereo dacs arranged in multiples for multi-channel use. So, the improvements in imaging and detail trickle-down to the mitigation of the inherent drawbacks of digital processing I suppose. I've spent some time listening to the x7200 and have found dynamic eq with that avr to be more enjoyable than with the x4400, and so I've speculated as to why that is the case. The aforementioned is my best guess.

pawelmwo · January 17

sponger wrote: »

pawelmwo wrote: »

How does everyone feel about Dynamic EQ? I obviously can't listen home at reference levels.

It's generally a given that playback without added processing is going to be less obfuscating especially when the processing is as overt as dynamic eq. So, purists will never make exceptions for it. But, at least from my experiences, the muddying properties can be less of an issue depending on the DACs and analog stage found in the avr. In the upper echelons of Denon avrs like the 6xxx and up, the step up in design and components does make for a less intrusive dynamic eq listening experience. It seems that way to me anyway. For example, the 6400 has discrete channels and monolithic construction allowing for improved L/R separation. The 7xxx and 8xxx have AKM 4490EQ dacs which are stereo dacs arranged in multiples for multi-channel use. So, the improvements in imaging and detail trickle-down to the mitigation of the inherent drawbacks of digital processing I suppose. I've spent some time listening to the x7200 and have found dynamic eq with that avr to be more enjoyable than with the x4400, and so I've speculated as to why that is the case. The aforementioned is my best guess.

I've been doing some testing and it seems to vary by content. There is notable distortion, muddiness and or overwhelming bass especially on low bit rate streaming content. Results vary with the different reference level offsets. Based on the recommendation of another board I'm testing Audyssey Flat in combination with Cinema EQ. I don't think I'm going to stick with Dynamic EQ. Based on that notion of the driving power you mentioned I think I'll stick with the x4400 and consider adding an amp down the line.

sponger · January 18

Compounding the issue is the LSiM being the uncannily revealing speaker that it is. So, whatever nagging nuances of imperfection present in the audio stream are going to be even more difficult to ignore than otherwise. Adding more power will bring out the staging and improve imaging, but probably won't do much to make poor recording formats sound less poor.

Tilting towers to get tweeter ear level

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Tilting towers to get tweeter ear level

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