Tilting towers to get tweeter ear level
Anyone have a solid process for this? I'm toying with raising and lowering the back feet on my 705's. I feel like there is a bit of change to the quality of sound. I'm still in the first few hundred hours but occasionally feel like some things sound a bit harsh on the high end. I've not applied any acoustic treatments to the room yet which might help as well. Thanks!
According to Robert Harley in his book, The Complete Guide to High End Audio:
"Typically, the loudspeaker will be brightest (i.e. have the most treble) when your ears are at the same height as the tweeters or on the tweeter axis. Most tweeters are positioned between 32" and 40" from the floor to coincide with typical listening heights........The degree to which the sound changes with height varies greatly with the loudspeaker. Some models have a broad range over which little change is audible; others can exhibit large tonal changes when you merely straighten your back when listening...."
According to Robert Harley in his book, The Complete Guide to High End Audio:
"Typically, the loudspeaker will be brightest (i.e. have the most treble) when your ears are at the same height as the tweeters or on the tweeter axis. Most tweeters are positioned between 32" and 40" from the floor to coincide with typical listening heights........The degree to which the sound changes with height varies greatly with the loudspeaker. Some models have a broad range over which little change is audible; others can exhibit large tonal changes when you merely straighten your back when listening...."
Comments
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1430
Tad 803 speakers
Receiver:
Denon x4400h (Audyssey is off, Speakers both set as Large)
Speakers:
705 Left and Right
706c Center
Cables:
Sewell Silverback 12 AWG oxygen free 6' banana plugs
Surge:
Tripp Lite TLP1208TEL
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1430
Tad 803 speakers
Also, you can always manually set the eq when audyssey is off. You can also use the audyssey curve by using "curve copy" and then making your own adjustments to that curve. Of course, curve copy is not the same as audyssey since it does not copy all 10,000 corrections that the calibration makes.
Another thing is that the calibration automatically does a "BBC dip," which is a dip at around 2khz to offset what audyssey claims is "harshness" resulting from the transition from the midrange to the tweeter. It's also known as "midrange compensation." They claim that they have never encountered a speaker that didn't need it. So, in theory that might be what you're hearing.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347863-Midrange-Compensation
Also, the x4400h has the option of using the multeq editor app, which gives you graphs of the calibration results before and after the corrections. It might tell you where things get peaky. It allows you to save as many configurations as you like. So, you could if you had the time and inclination experiment with rug / furniture placement and see what impact that has on the response graph.
It's understandable why you wouldn't want dynamic eq or dynamic volume turned on. But you can have audyssey engaged while having both of those processing effects turned off.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
Thanks I ran Audyssey and playing with that now. Appears that the bass is a bit tigther and some notable general improvements. Looks like it also does not run while using the TV's internal apps. Regarding the Tone Curve Editor I'm imagining you need to purchase that app to make the changes? I didn't see a way to make any modifications to it on the Denon itself. Thanks!
Audyssey should be available for all inputs. I don't see why it wouldn't be engaged while watching tv.
Yes it's $20 for the editor app for android and ios.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
Found out was using Direct vs Auto. I get Audyssey now. I will check out getting the app. I'm noting the sound is generally flatter with it on, and caught some distortion in the intro of Blade Runner 2049 using Dynamic EQ. So for now just using MultEQ X32 without anything else. Sure this is a larger topic of discussion but do not want to derail the original topic too much. Thanks
You can be off on levelness of the speakers vertically from top to bottom with just one speaker and throw off your sound stage. You can have one speaker tilted backward or forward even by less than an 1/8 of an inch and you will throw off the sound stage. Same with toe in. Same with distance.
Please allow me to repeat myself. Everything affects everything.
If you have ear fatigue, it *may* be your gear. It may be that you are located too close to the speakers. It may be that your room is too "active". It may be that your settings are off, it may be that your interconnects are exemplifying the upper end of the frequency spectrum. It may be speaker location/tilt/toe/levelness/distance/proximity to walls/objects.
Everything affects everything. Have I mentioned that before?
Try positioning the speakers at a plane (Tilted backwards) that puts the direction of the tweeter above the outside of your ears. Try 2", then slip another CD under the front and try 4" above your ear. (Or you can simply adjust your spikes up and down). Trial and error will be your best friend. If nothing seems to work?
Try putting in some Copper cables (IC's) versus Silver based, try adjusting your settings. Try everything that other folks here suggest. Main thing is that you need to keep experimenting and then get back to us with your findings. There is a lot of knowledge on this board (Even Lightman1) and most of us are not shy in trying to steer you in the right direction. Just let us know what you find out and post your findings.
You will eventually tame the upper frequencies, or at the very least, find out where your problem stems from....so you can adjust accordingly.
Tom
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
Everything.
Class dismissed.
Tom
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
The dip at 2 khz is the "BBC dip" that can be defeated through the app.
You might notice the peaky bass signature, which has everything to do with the room. Without audyssey there is quite a lot of resonance in all corners of adjacent areas including dining room, kitchen, and entrance way. I think with a bass trap here and there the "before" graph would look a lot different.
Also, there's that weird dip right at 100hz. That wasn't there during the first calibration. He put rugs under both speakers in an attempt to contain the bass. The left speaker's spikes weren't seated properly in the rug, and we think that's why there's that dip there that wasn't before. The right speaker doesn't have it.
Also, that roll off at 13-14khz is of course the "audyssey reference" roll off. It can be defeated through the avr by switching to "flat" in the same menu where you find dyn eq, dyn vol, LFC, etc.
Sounds great. In fact it sounds real great. Always lookin forward to heading over there and hanging for a bit.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
I'm reading the app doesn't allow you to proceed if encountering phase errors as with the receiver menu. If this is the case I would not be able to use it. Because I receive phase error on the right when running the calibration and I had to ignore it. The wiring was correct. I would love to add some bass back post the Audyssey calibration. Because I'm not using a sub and only the 705 and 706c. I suppose I understand now when these speakers were referred to as warm. I actually like the bass very much prior to the room correction.
The phase errors can be ignored just like with the avr calibration. All LSiM speakers in the 5.0 configuration in that example had those phase error messages.
The app will let you designate at exactly which point the room correction takes effect. So, you could set it so that it starts at, say, 100hz and above, leaving lower bass unmodified.
Have you tried turning up the "restorer" levels to get more bass?
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
So...tweek the settings in your menu to get more bass. The calibration is just a guideline, it's not written in stone to abide by.
First thing I'd check is your speaker levels. Set the fronts back to 0 and adjust from there in your listening position.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1430
Tad 803 speakers
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level
Bought the app last night and ran it this morning. Here are my results. The room has a small area rug, couch and some furniture. I've also got some vaulted ceilings. The speakers are about a foot away from the wall. LR are toed in towards the listening position forming a V shape.
Hopefully the app allowed you to manage the issues you were encountering. With a full set of pre-outs on the back of the x4400h, your next move would go without saying I suppose.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
Bass is definitely tighter and I'm hearing more details and balance. It does appear a lot more neutral. I'll give it a few days to settle and see how I like it. I realized I had +3db in my tone levels across the board prior to running Audyssey. If I removed it would it mess with the results or is it just a linear decrease to the calibration?
No it was very easy. And you can even change the speaker sizes in the app after. It also opens up Audyssey settings that are not available on the receiver. Can adjust the results and re-upload to the receiver. Very cool
Tone controls are overridden by audyssey. The calibration ignores any existing settings.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level
I've tried them and don't like them. I never come close to reference levels but in general we have no issues hearing the dialogue.
It's generally a given that playback without added processing is going to be less obfuscating especially when the processing is as overt as dynamic eq. So, purists will never make exceptions for it. But, at least from my experiences, the muddying properties can be less of an issue depending on the DACs and analog stage found in the avr. In the upper echelons of Denon avrs like the 6**** and up, the step up in design and components does make for a less intrusive dynamic eq listening experience. It seems that way to me anyway. For example, the 6400 has discrete channels and monolithic construction allowing for improved L/R separation. The 7**** and 8**** have AKM 4490EQ dacs which are stereo dacs arranged in multiples for multi-channel use. So, the improvements in imaging and detail trickle-down to the mitigation of the inherent drawbacks of digital processing I suppose. I've spent some time listening to the x7200 and have found dynamic eq with that avr to be more enjoyable than with the x4400, and so I've speculated as to why that is the case. The aforementioned is my best guess.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
I've been doing some testing and it seems to vary by content. There is notable distortion, muddiness and or overwhelming bass especially on low bit rate streaming content. Results vary with the different reference level offsets. Based on the recommendation of another board I'm testing Audyssey Flat in combination with Cinema EQ. I don't think I'm going to stick with Dynamic EQ. Based on that notion of the driving power you mentioned I think I'll stick with the x4400 and consider adding an amp down the line.
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f