Whats the best Intergrated Amp in the $300-$600 price range?

F1nut · September 2018

BassFreak101 wrote: »

No need for an intergrated any more, I recently started using my Optonica-5105 and it sounds way better then the Denon (probably because it was an Avr) . Way better bass response, wider sound stage, and almost no distortion.

As you mentioned THD previously and distortion above I don't believe you understand what is what. The THD rating for just about every piece of SS gear made since the 1960's is below 1%, which is the audible threshold. Without looking, I'd bet the THD rating for the AVR is less than the vintage receiver. Basically, the THD rating means nothing.

The distortion you heard from using the AVR is because you were overdriving the poor things weak power supply, which causes clipping, aka distortion.

BlueFox · September 2018

Good answer Jesse. Unfortunately, $300-$600 will only buy a very basic power cable, certainly not an integrated amp.

BassFreak101 · September 2018

Good answer, but that Avrs THD was like 1% , while the optonica has a 0.04 THD. Which audio wise made a huge difference. That line of optonica were known for having super low THD.

BassFreak101 · September 2018

Anyways I got rid of the Denon , so lol its not a problem anymore.

F1nut · September 2018

BassFreak101 wrote: »

Good answer, but that Avrs THD was like 1% , while the optonica has a 0.04 THD. Which audio wise made a huge difference. That line of optonica were known for having super low THD.

You're still not getting the point. The THD rating had nothing to do with the distortion you were hearing.

BTW, the THD rating for the Denon AVR is 0.07%. If you think a 0.03% difference means anything, it doesn’t.

BassFreak101 · September 2018

Ok, could you explain it a little better, because I always thought the THD played a big role.
Thanks, Jace

jeremymarcinko · September 2018

So F1 is correct in that it is not discernible. But, less is still better because if the total THD combined from the source, DAC, signal cable, speaker cable, and loudspeakers are over the threshold it will be audible.

But also keep in mind those amplifier thd numbers don’t really tell you much as they’re a product of the amount of watts the manufacturer wanted to publish. 100wpc @ .1 or 90wpc @ .019 for example.
How it looks on paper depends the market they’re after.

mhardy6647 · September 2018

harmonic distortion is only one of a myriad of nonlinearities (inaccuracies) that can arise in ampliifers. Harmonic distortion is easy to measure. The onset of gross nonlinearity in an amplifier is the fundamental measure of clipping, and thus the usable power output of an amplifier. So, THD is a valuable "figure of merit" when it comes to amplifier design and objective testing...

If one looks at a graph of amplifier THD as a function of output power, the level goes up sharply as the clipping power output level is approached. The same amplifier, thus, could be rated by its manufacturer different ways, depending on the acceptable THD threshold. For example, an amplifier that has power output of, say, 50 watts at 0.05% THD might be capable of 65 watts at 0.3% THD or 100 watts at 1% THD. It's all the same amplifier!

but except at extreme levels and under some circumstances, THD doesn't really correlate terribly well with audio quality. The 1% figure @F1nut mentions has long been a widely accepted threshold. It's more complicated than that, in the sense that not all harmonic distortion sounds bad. If the harmonic is the so called second order harmonic of the fundamental tone, it is exactly one octave above the fundamental tone -- and will sound "good" ("euphonic" is the term of art). All even order harmonics are "euphonic" Ever hear, e.g., the guitar intro of the Rolling Stones' song Satisfaction? This is a seminal example of euphonic harmonic distortion.

From a "hifi" perspective, it is inaccurate, but it is not unpleasant. Most hifi amplifiers use a topology called "push-pull" amplification which, by design, cancels out even order harmonics. The THD spectrum of a push-pull amp will be enriched with odd-order harmonics, which are not perceived by our ears (brains) as musical -- thus we'll find odd-order HD objectionable at much lower levels than even order HD.

THD is relatively easy to lower using techniques including negative feedback (NFB). The cure,however, can be worse than the disease. High levels of poorly implemented NFB can introduce other kinds of distortion that are felt (by at least some folks) to be much more objectionable audibly than harmonic distortion. Such amplifiers can also be marginally unstable, and perform poorly -- even self-destruct! -- when connected to "challenging" loudspeaker loads.

Bottom line: There are many objective ways to measure the performance of an amplifier. Building an amp to measure well in one or more of those ways is like teaching to the test in education systems that measure progress with a standardized test. Kids who excel at the test may or may not be well educated by other criteria!

If the OP wants to know more about this stuff, just ask (or start googlin').

BassFreak101 · September 2018

Ok I understand better now, thank you so much for your help.

joecoulson · September 2018

mhardy6647 wrote: »

harmonic distortion is only one of a myriad of nonlinearities (inaccuracies) that can arise in ampliifers. Harmonic distortion is easy to measure. The onset of gross nonlinearity in an amplifier is the fundamental measure of clipping, and thus the usable power output of an amplifier. So, THD is a valuable "figure of merit" when it comes to amplifier design and objective testing...

If one looks at a graph of amplifier THD as a function of output power, the level goes up sharply as the clipping power output level is approached. The same amplifier, thus, could be rated by its manufacturer different ways, depending on the acceptable THD threshold. For example, an amplifier that has power output of, say, 50 watts at 0.05% THD might be capable of 65 watts at 0.3% THD or 100 watts at 1% THD. It's all the same amplifier!

but except at extreme levels and under some circumstances, THD doesn't really correlate terribly well with audio quality. The 1% figure @F1nut mentions has long been a widely accepted threshold. It's more complicated than that, in the sense that not all harmonic distortion sounds bad. If the harmonic is the so called second order harmonic of the fundamental tone, it is exactly one octave above the fundamental tone -- and will sound "good" ("euphonic" is the term of art). All even order harmonics are "euphonic" Ever hear, e.g., the guitar intro of the Rolling Stones' song Satisfaction? This is a seminal example of euphonic harmonic distortion.

From a "hifi" perspective, it is inaccurate, but it is not unpleasant. Most hifi amplifiers use a topology called "push-pull" amplification which, by design, cancels out even order harmonics. The THD spectrum of a push-pull amp will be enriched with odd-order harmonics, which are not perceived by our ears (brains) as musical -- thus we'll find odd-order HD objectionable at much lower levels than even order HD.

THD is relatively easy to lower using techniques including negative feedback (NFB). The cure,however, can be worse than the disease. High levels of poorly implemented NFB can introduce other kinds of distortion that are felt (by at least some folks) to be much more objectionable audibly than harmonic distortion. Such amplifiers can also be marginally unstable, and perform poorly -- even self-destruct! -- when connected to "challenging" loudspeaker loads.

Bottom line: There are many objective ways to measure the performance of an amplifier. Building an amp to measure well in one or more of those ways is like teaching to the test in education systems that measure progress with a standardized test. Kids who excel at the test may or may not be well educated by other criteria!

If the OP wants to know more about this stuff, just ask (or start googlin').

Thank You for taking the time to write this.

mhardy6647 · September 2018

De nada -- but it's just my usual doggerel

I do want to add that there's absolutely a place for rigorous testing and quantitative measurement in hifi. If nothing else, the quantitative tests are critical to the folks who design and build electronics! My perspective on objectivism when it comes to hifi audio is informed by the well-know quote ascribed to long-time HH Scott chief engineer Daniel von Recklinghausen:

"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

http://hhscott.com/vonrecklinghausen.htm

halo · September 2018

Musical Fidelity M2si $599

https://upscaleaudio.com/products/musical-fidelity-m2si-integrated-amplifier

Brand new. Your choice of black or silver. Ships free. This is a no brainer.

Clipdat · September 2018

Upscale Audio has been on my **** list ever since they were rude to one of our own. (@stangman67 )

tonyb · September 2018

halo wrote: »

Musical Fidelity M2si $599

https://upscaleaudio.com/products/musical-fidelity-m2si-integrated-amplifier

Brand new. Your choice of black or silver. Ships free. This is a no brainer.

wow, that is a no brainer.

stangman67 · September 2018

Even with having to deal with a kevin deal, that is a damn good deal. I almost want to buy one just because

Clipdat · September 2018

stangman67 wrote: »

Even with having to deal with a kevin deal, that is a damn good deal. I almost want to buy one just because

Hahah. You don't hold a grudge like I do.

halo · September 2018

stangman67 wrote: »

Even with having to deal with a kevin deal, that is a damn good deal. I almost want to buy one just because

Tell you what,

You buy it, and I will hang on to it for ya free of charge. You can come to visit it any time you like.

halo · September 2018

I agree that Mr. Upscale Audio is a first-class kazoo but, I'd buy it anyway because, I'd be making out like a bandit in that scenario.

mhardy6647 · September 2018

halo wrote: »

I agree that Mr. Upscale Audio is a first-class kazoo but, I'd buy it anyway because, I'd be making out like a bandit in that scenario.

BassFreak101 · September 2018

halo · September 2018

mhardy6647 wrote: »

halo wrote: »

I agree that Mr. Upscale Audio is a first-class kazoo but, I'd buy it anyway because, I'd be making out like a bandit in that scenario.

No pun intended. RIP Burt.

mhardy6647 · September 2018

speaking of Upscale Audio (which, umm, some of all of y'all recently were)...
and, mind you, I offer this strictly as is and FWIW. No warranty, expressed or implied. YMMV. -- maybe even fake news -- but interesting.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/upscale-audio-weirdness.836803/

Even further disclaimer: I have no vested interest in the topic & I've had no -- ahem -- dealings with Upscale Audio myself.

Hermitism · September 2018

I dealt with Upscale Audio twice this spring/summer and had a good experience. Someone here posted a 40% off discount code for PS Audio products from their site. Thanks! I made one purchase for an AC5 1-meter power cord. They sent me an email a few days later letting me know that they were out of stock on the 1 meter cords and I could wait about two months and they would let me know when they were back in stock OR if it was okay with me, they would send me a 1.5 meter AC5 ($50 more than 1 meter) at no additional cost and they could ship it right away. I'll always welcome a little extra length! They shipped it out fast. New in box. I waited about five or six weeks and placed an order for a second AC5. I didn't expect the same deal since they knew that I already knew they were out of stock on the 1 meter cords. Again they offered me the same deal or I could have waited about three weeks for a 1 meter, so I ended up getting two AC5 1.5 meter cables for about 50% off regular price. Both times I dealt with Tamara, Order Processing Manager via email. That's my only experience with them. They shipped fast and both cables were packaged well.