Monitor 7b vs 5b max spl?

buttercup
buttercup Posts: 34
edited January 2017 in Vintage Speakers
5n8e9bzv8dca.jpg
I'm retrofitting a really cool Curtis Mathis console with upgraded sound.
I plan on placing two monitor 5's or 7's into the speaker cavity; the 5's will fit easily into the cavity and allow the use of sorbothane pads and insulation around the speakers in an attempt to reduce the bass acting on the CM cabinet. That approach is straight forward enough.
I can modify the cabinets on the 7's to fit; this will require removing the 7's baffle and constructing a cabinet that is 1" narrrower in width and adding to the cabinet depth to make up the volume... a bit of effort for sure.
I understand the 7's dig a little deeper than the 5's, what I don't know is the maximum SPL of each model.
Another option would be to modify the baffle on the 5's to accommodate the larger passive of the 7's and add volume to the depth of the cabinet.
Anyone want to weigh in on these or other options?
?
«13

Comments

  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    I would have to imagine the maximum SPL would be virtually the same. They both employ the same drivers, and any small difference would be negligible.

    Adding a sub, somewhere and limiting the bass to the "Console" speakers you employ, might make a difference, especially in bass power handling, if you cross the 5's or 7's at 80hz or so.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,458
    I don't think your plan will sound as good as you think it will. If you want to keep that cabinet, use it for the electronics on that bottom open space and put the speakers on stands flanking the sides. Just my .02
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  • ^^^ What he suggests
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  • buttercup
    buttercup Posts: 34
    edited January 2017
    I understand placing the speakers in the cabinet will diminish the sound quality to some degree... most likely reduce imaging and separation.
    That said, space is at a premium where this will be used, and while I want the best SQ possible, it's a fair trade off for the form factor. Also the cabinets on both the 5's & the 7's are a bit rough.
    tonyb wrote: »
    I don't think your plan will sound as good as you think it will. If you want to keep that cabinet, use it for the electronics on that bottom open space and put the speakers on stands flanking the sides. Just my .02



  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    You will have zero separation and zero imaging. What a waste of a really nice speaker. Buy something cheaper. It's like only driving your 911 down the driveway and back to get the mail. A golf cart could do the same job only cheaper.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • buttercup
    buttercup Posts: 34
    edited January 2017
    heiney9 wrote: »
    You will have zero separation and zero imaging. What a waste of a really nice speaker. Buy something cheaper. It's like only driving your 911 down the driveway and back to get the mail. A golf cart could do the same job only cheaper.

    H9

    Buy something cheaper!... I have less than $100 bucks in both sets, most of that is the $60 bucks I spent on caps & resistors for one set!
    Also the tweeters will be about 48" apart and the mid drivers about 42" apart... there will not be zero seperation and/or imaging!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,458
    Well, you did ask for our opinions, lol Possible to put the speakers on top of that cabinet ? I'm not sure about your questions on SPL as it relates to your intended use. Your plan isn't really optimal for good sound and who wants higher spl's of bad sound anyway ? Just sayin'...
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • I guess I'm doubtful the sound will be "bad", just not optimal.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    My 5B's sound best 3 1/2 feet apart and toed in and about 10-12" from the back wall. I sit about 4 feet away.

    So no, it's not optimal and will not sound all that great.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,458
    buttercup wrote: »
    I guess I'm doubtful the sound will be "bad", just not optimal.

    Could be, we all have different opinions on what good sound is. Only way to find out is to try it right ? Won't cost ya anything to find out.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    edited January 2017
    I know we all have to make sacrifices based on many things that might not be optimal. You will get sound, just not really close to what the 5B's (or 7's) are capable of.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • Yep, a console by definition is a trade off of aesthetics to sound quality. I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this type project, I won't seek any further input.
  • motorhead43026
    motorhead43026 Posts: 3,869
    edited January 2017
    ^^Right, if you want opinions on how too build something that will sound like a boom box this in not the place, still stick around though.
    Post edited by motorhead43026 on
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.

    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.

    Imagine making politics your entire personality.
  • I was hopeful that I would receive input on the effect cabinet volume may have on the 5's or possibly recommendations on how to place them in the cabinet... instead I received one response suggesting adding a sub and a cap to shunt the lows, that is the type of input I was hoping for, thank you K-M

    To the "it'll sound like crap crowd": what a bunch of snobs... every project is not in pursuit of a critical listening system- I'm enjoying a fun inexpensive project and you guys act like I'm building a Kenner close & play.
    I'm sure mounting these horizontally in the cabinet will cause them to distort soooo horribly that they will be unlistenable! Maybe I should knock out a wall and enlarge the room so I have enough room to put these speakers in the optimum orientation... or just remove the other furnishings in this space to make room for their perfect placement, because lets face it, my life and lake house should revolve around a $60 set of speakers.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    You asked for input, sorry you didn't like the answers. No one here said "unlistenable" take your drama somewhere else.

    Creating a better listening space is a worthy effort.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 9,612
    I don't mean LOL in a condescending way, that post made me laugh though. Good stuff buttercup. ;)
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • Jimbo18
    Jimbo18 Posts: 2,242
    I understand your reaction, but I think if you go back and read the individual suggestions, the members are really just trying to help.

    Most members on this site, are here because they love high quality audio and want to learn from others and also help those of us, like me, that look for advice on topics that they might have more experience with than we do.

    Many are seeking their idea of an ultimate system and aren't snobs, so much as perfectionists. They spend hundreds of dollars or more, looking for a small improvement in SQ. They aren't trying to belittle your project so much as let you know that they wouldn't advise it because of the loss of that sound quality.

    And yeah, there's a bit of "needling" that goes on, but 99% of the time it's all in fun. Reading it doesn't always convey the tongue-in-cheek message they meant to send. Stick around a bit more and you will find some great, generous, knowledgeable, people.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 46,523
    You seem to know very little about home audio. For example, K_M did not suggest adding a shunt cap. They were referring to using the crossover setting in an AVR, which would also be responsible for handling the bass (subwoofer) management.

    In response to your last post. You did ask for opinions from those with more knowledge than you. Just because you didn't like the answers does not justify your insults.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


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  • Paradoxex
    Paradoxex Posts: 190
    Jimbo18 wrote: »
    I understand your reaction, but I think if you go back and read the individual suggestions, the members are really just trying to help.

    Most members on this site, are here because they love high quality audio and want to learn from others and also help those of us, like me, that look for advice on topics that they might have more experience with than we do.

    Many are seeking their idea of an ultimate system and aren't snobs, so much as perfectionists. They spend hundreds of dollars or more, looking for a small improvement in SQ. They aren't trying to belittle your project so much as let you know that they wouldn't advise it because of the loss of that sound quality.

    And yeah, there's a bit of "needling" that goes on, but 99% of the time it's all in fun. Reading it doesn't always convey the tongue-in-cheek message they meant to send. Stick around a bit more and you will find some great, generous, knowledgeable, people.

    Eloquently put and diplomatically phrased.

    It is a bit hard to square this with the case at hand because people who are perfectionists are concerned about their own perfection - you cross over into snobbiness when you force that upon others. The OP is upset because he got condescension and no help. He's not entirely off base.

    He clearly communicated that he understood there was a tradeoff, and that he was ok with that. He wanted to try something innovative, even if it might fail. Getting a response like this:

    "What a waste of a really nice speaker. Buy something cheaper. It's like only driving your 911 down the driveway and back to get the mail. A golf cart could do the same job only cheaper."

    ...doesn't help him get any closer to testing his theory. Frankly, I'm sure Brock has not tried this project himself, so the certainty with which he speaks about "zero-imaging" is suspect, to say the least. For a forum that has had many fights over the concept of "trusting your ears" over anything else, we don't always practice fidelity to the concept.

    This isn't an attack- we, and I, appreciate that people speak bluntly and freely here. That said, the OP has half of his posts on this topic where he was asking for help and clearly didn't get much. I don't think that has made him more likely to engage here, something which leads me to conclude we could be a bit friendlier and a bit less insular to those who don't get all the forum personalities and the forum "culture" yet.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    edited January 2017
    I stand by what I said. For further example I don't have to slam my head into a wall to know it's going to hurt. I own a modded pair of 5B's, I know what they are capable of. I don't need to set them side by side in a cabinet to know they will be very compromised compared to how they really can sound. So call my intuition suspect all you want.

    I encourage the OP to try whatever he needs to do to satisfy his set of circumstances. But don't ask for input if you can't brush off ideas, statements that don't fit into the plan in your head.

    H9

    P.s. Nowhere in his initial post did mention anything about a "compromised" sound
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9, I missed the idea you profered... all I read was putting them in this cabinet would make them produce zero imaging and zero stereo separation and you'll get sound, but not close to the speakers capability. So where's the useful input in that. I'll make you a deal, don't crap on my threads and I won't call you out on it.

    You know guys, my first stereo was an all in one 8 track, TT, am/fm with attached speakers... I was 11 and I loved it, played it constantly.
    In my early teens, I rode my bike 4 miles to the local hole in a wall stereo shop... the owner chain smoked filter less Camels and tought me the basics of how to trace circuits, soilder, clean controls and dial in a cartridge. He sold Sansui, Mac, Bang Olfson, JBL and others... he let me listen to most anything whenever I showed up. He gifted me some Utah coaxial drivers with the directive to build some cabinets for them and enjoy... when I asked he told me to build them as large as practical and stuff 'emwith insulation. I built 4' x 4' x 4' plywood boxes and mounted the driver right in the middle, powered by a Kenwood 35 watt receiver... it was so damn loud the neighbors two doors down complained. I had to hang the TT from the ceiling to isolate it... it was boomy and probably harsh... I loved it! It sounded great, I gifted the whole system to another kid in the hood when I moved from home, he loved it too!
    Through the years I've owned, built, modified and enjoyed all manner of audio equipment and I've also built bass traps and room treatments to enhance the sound quality. I've had everything from mono block rafter shakers to 8 watt SET amps. I have enjoyed every damn one of them for what they were.
    This little console will be no different... I will enjoy it for what it is, and never count the loss of what it ain't!

  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    edited January 2017
    Should be able to read between the lines

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • buttercup
    buttercup Posts: 34
    edited January 2017
    Cmon H9, what should I read between your lines? Again, I ask... where's your useful input.
    What I read is the console is worth zero effort!
    What I read is the speakers are a Porsche 911 and what I need is a golf cart!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,172
    Sorry, just not something I would ever do......so I'll abstain from this point further.

    Hope it all works out for you.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 2,185
    Experiment on the 5's. They'll sound 100x better than the rusted junk that was extracted. If anyone brings their console over for a sound shootout, they'll be butt-hurt.
  • xschop wrote: »
    Experiment on the 5's. They'll sound 100x better than the rusted junk that was extracted. If anyone brings their console over for a sound shootout, they'll be butt-hurt.

    Haha, yep like toneyb posted "won't cost anything to try"
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,458
    xschop wrote: »
    Experiment on the 5's. They'll sound 100x better than the rusted junk that was extracted. If anyone brings their console over for a sound shootout, they'll be butt-hurt.

    LOL....Bring a console over for a shoot out ??

    Actually you'd be surprised, some of those old consoles sounded exceptional.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 9,612
    tonyb wrote: »
    LOL....Bring a console over for a shoot out ??

    Pretty funny. Like drag racing stock wood paneled minivans. No matter who wins everyone's a loser ;)
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    tonyb wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Experiment on the 5's. They'll sound 100x better than the rusted junk that was extracted. If anyone brings their console over for a sound shootout, they'll be butt-hurt.

    LOL....Bring a console over for a shoot out ??

    Actually you'd be surprised, some of those old consoles sounded exceptional.

    We have an old one in our "Basement" family room, inherited a while back, and surprisingly it sounds far better than expected.

    It is an old Zenith from the mid 70's with 10" woofers and a tweeter, and it will play really fairly loud and with bass I was not expecting at all.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver