Flac vs wav vs cd sound difference

erniejade · October 2016

I had some time over the weekend and decided to check out some file differences. Some of you might have done this but, I thought I would share my experience.

HP I7 laptop, wireworld platinum usb cable to W4s Dac2. AQ jitterbug on the external drive and from the laptop out to the w4s USB.

Santana IV CD ripped on Jriver default flac settings ( I think its 5 or 6) compression vs Ripped on flac with 0 on the compression settings. The stock settings of jriver flac vs 0 to me was big. I know bites are bites but, I heard a difference. The top end was cleaner and the mid presence was better. The bass was also more pronounced. Flac 0 wins this round.

Flac0 vs uncompressed Wav. Wav highs, and mids were even cleaner and again, more bass. It just sounded more musical. Wav wins this round.

Uncompressed Wav vs cd. The w4s via usb is a little bit louder vs the cayin cdt50 going to the same dac via a MIT coax so I had to adjust the volume to make it fair. The top and mid was too close to call however, the sound stage of the usb seemed 2 feet closer where the cd was 2 feet back. It seemed to bring things a bit more up front. The wideness on the usb was also bigger. The bass on the Wav was bigger and changing between the 2, you always knew what was the laptop since the bass was bigger. Wav wins this round

Now from reading around, I did not know that Flac0 on jriver was not uncompressed flac so I need to load up another ripping program to see how uncompressed flac does.

Now I know my digital portion isn't up to par just yet but, I have learned the file does make a difference. I have complained I can hear the difference between flac and cd and I am understanding why now. Compression on the flac even though it isn't supposed to make a difference on sound, on my rig I definitely heard a difference.
I know it can also be my playback portion since the laptop even with the jitterbugs in place is noisy. A MicroRendu after I do a uncompressed flac test might be my next step.

SCompRacer · October 2016

Does JRiver have lossless uncompressed? Maybe try that, if it does.

dBpoweramp has that setting.

Emlyn · October 2016

I am not sure if I can tell a difference between output quality of WAV or FLAC files because I haven't tested closely. But, I figured a few years ago that WAV files are the closest version to what is on the original CD without unpacking and processing required. Since storage space is not an issue I ripped 30K plus tracks in WAV format over the last few years. I also converted copies of all of them to FLAC, which is what I use over the Squeezebox, and MP3, which is what I use in my car's system. Best of all worlds, and I don't have a lingering doubt that maybe I should have ripped to WAV originally for an archive to work from.

It is also possible to create a WAV file from a file originally ripped as a FLAC file. Could be interesting to test that too!

erniejade · October 2016

If jriver has an uncompressed flac setting I cannot find it. dbpoweramp is exactly what I was thinking of trying to use to rip instead of Jriver.

I am not too deep into ripping my collection so I only have about 250 -280 CDs ripped in jriver default settings and about 700 ish to go but until I figure out what's the better sounding format, I am halting.

Emlyn I am not sure if it would make a sound difference going from flac compressed at 6 and converting it into wav would make a sound difference but it's worth giving it a shot.

Now I'm not saying one format is better then another but on my rig so far uncompressed wav is coming out on top. It also could be my rig has an easier time playing wav or I should maybe say an uncompressed file in general?

skrol · October 2016

I thought I had noticed a difference in sound with lossless FLAC vs CD. I was not sure if it was due to the file format or differences in the conversion back to analog.

tonyb · October 2016

You wouldn't be the first with those observations Brian. I know many that prefer uncompressed Wav files over compressed flac or other lossless.

My thoughts always return to the owner of Audio note who once said.....an unmolested signal is the best signal. Meaning the less you do to it, the better it sounds.

I realize we live in a world that tries to make roast beef out of a sheet sandwich, taking bad recordings and trying to make them listenable by separating this and that and putting it all back together like humpty dumpty. Sometimes it works and sometimes not so much. I think the best success comes with starting with the best recordings one can find and keeping the signal as pure as possible. You know....the old garbage in-garbage out routine. Easier said than done though huh.

Those differences you hear may or may not be heard on lessor systems and thus it becomes a non issue for some. The better your system, the more it's faults become apparent too. Try and find that middle ground otherwise you'll be chasing ghosts in the machine for the next 20 years.

heiney9 · October 2016

Using dB Poweramp and previously EAC and I have not detected a difference between FLAC and WAV and I've been doing this for over10 years, so I'm not a noob to digital storage.

The ripping software is a big part of the component. I have never used Jriver so I can't comment. The second biggest component is the playback device or software. And thirdly is the conversion device.

I use 3 separate things for the above. Each excelling in their duties.

H9

P.s. of course as is seen in this thread YMMV

erniejade · October 2016

I am going to try db poweramp this weekend. I am finding out the way it is ripped is definitely part of my dislike for the sound I had had. I am finally starting to hear what others hear when they say the digital version sound as good or better then cd.

I have ordered a Intona isolation to clean up the usb on the laptop and will most likely change to a Sonore microrendu soon. I have a Nas in raid 1 for mirror why not use it and ditch the laptop!

SCompRacer · October 2016

skrol wrote: »

I thought I had noticed a difference in sound with lossless FLAC vs CD. I was not sure if it was due to the file format or differences in the conversion back to analog.

I highlighted what I think is the important part.

When comparing CD to flac, you have to use the same DAC. However, now you are usually SPDIF coax out of the CD player to DAC, where inside the player it is I2S. I2S is a serial bus interface standard used for connecting digital audio devices together. I2S separates clock from data, where SPDIF has clock embedded with data and the DAC must sort it out. Currently I am Signature Sonore music server USB to I2S out using a SoTM USB card with pricey separate power supply. A Sonore USB to I2S card resides in my DAC which I run in synch, that is the clock on the USB card is used as master clock.

Some DAC's do SPDIF better than others, the ESS Sabre for one. I2S was not meant for long 1/2 meter + runs (usually it is inches) so you could shoot yourself in the foot SQ wise if you could do I2S out of CD player and connect to DAC with a long cable. I did when I first modded my CD player for I2S out and while it worked with a one meter cable, it wasn't the best SQ.

There are Teleporters than can transmit and receive I2S up to 100 feet without problems, but some folks claim they hear differences using Teleporters. I used Twisted Pear Teleporters to send and receive I2S and could not hear any sound degradation between my CD player and DAC with a 2 meter cable. The cable was a Blue Jeans data cable which are tested on a Fluke DTX-1800 certification tester after assembly.

So on it goes...I think it depends on the gear and implementation as to what your experience will be.

Then again here is what highly respected Cookie Marenco of Blue Coast Records claims.

About FLAC... "We did a lot of early testing for FLAC because it is also less expensive for us to send when a file is smaller, but, when listening back to uncompressed FLAC against the full WAV file when both are sent through email... there is a difference and the WAV has consistently sounded better.

We realize that much has been published that FLAC is bit to bit accurate, but with a listening test, this is not the case. I have suggested to many of our customers to do the experiment themselves and all have reported the same results as we have found."

Reading into that, is it the delivery process (email, download) that degrades the flac? Like she says, we must all decide for ourselves.

honestaquarian · October 2016

I heard a difference on some Hi resolution 24/96 files between FLAC and ALAC (*Apple Lossless*) files. I tried to detect a difference between WAV and FLAC on CD quality rips and couldn't hear anything. I was using the Windows Media Player that comes in Windows 10.

steveinaz · October 2016

I never noted any difference between flac/wav. My DAC is a Benchmark DAC2, and my files are played from a USB Hard drive thru my Oppo BDP-103, into the DAC. I WILL say that I find HDD derived files seem to have a smoother, more analog quality vs the CD version; though it's extremely subtle. Again, using the DAC2 and the CDP only as a transport.

Some of you must have "bat ears." LOL

erniejade · October 2016

http://intona.eu/en/products

I still have not had a chance to check out uncompressed flac yet the 15 or so I did rip to wav to compare to flac -0 wav is kicking booty.

I have added a Intona to the system and its even better sounding. Bass got a lot tighter and the highs are now on par with cd. The mid I think actually now passes cd so bass and mid better vs cd top same as cd. At first I was concerned about adding a second usb cable but so far it still sounds better then it did without it in the system. I put the jitterbug on the usb drive.I havent tried it without it yet but that test will soon come as well. Right now I recommend some usb laptop based systems that need help to try one out

I still think eventually I am going to pick up a microrenu. I have read a lot of great reviews on it and it will clear up space vs the big laptop that has a 17" screen on it.

After I rip the next 700-800 cds, I need to figure out how to make the sacd into dsd. Ive been reading about making them an iso. I am a couple of months out from trying it out but, like they say, the more you know ( cue bad music here)

As far as sound hearing the sound difference
Between flac and wav or not being able to hear a difference, 1 I think using Windows media player might be limiting you and #2 how high can your top end of your hearing go? Something I have noticed people more sensitive to high end seem to be able to hear subtle difference that just bug them. Myself even if I go to a concert, or when I dj, I used molded earplugs with a -15 db otherwise it becomes almost painful for me while others including my wife are perfectly fine. Im not saying this is the case with everyone but just an observation.

tophatjohnny · October 2016

DSkip wrote: »

Windows media player is a dirty word. Anything that utilizes the Windows driver is going to sound bad. I let others hear tidal on my main rig vs the jriver version and it was completely obvious to everyone who heard it.

So what are ya really saying brother??

On another note, there are more user friendly programs out there than JR for ripping, just sayin'.

honestaquarian · October 2016

DSkip wrote: »

Windows media player is a dirty word. Anything that utilizes the Windows driver is going to sound bad. I let others hear tidal on my main rig vs the jriver version and it was completely obvious to everyone who heard it.

@DSkip
I'm not paying for an outside player when the one that comes built in works just fine and I have not been able to detect any deleterious effects from it. I don't have any problems using it to stream media from my desktop to my Oppo BDP player,Onkyo preamp,Integra receiver or PS3 Slim (*in some cases simultaneously to multiple devices in two rooms streaming audio and video AND even using more than one computer when friends brought their laptops over*)
If some don't like that is fine,but I am willing to bet that not too many of the shareware media players out there are as easy to use or as versatile.

BlueFox · October 2016

Using a computer to play music is the absolute worst possible method. Save your money and buy a quality dedicated file player. You can thank me later.

BlueFox · October 2016

One day I am going to have to try streaming. The Lumin supports Tidal, but I have so much music now I just haven't felt like trying it.

K_M · October 2016

The true test, is telling these things apart, and not knowing which you are listening to.

I've found, I can tell,when I know which I am listening to, but it becomes much harder to tell when not aware....

I have found myself reverse guessing and finding faults with the lossless!!

steveinaz · October 2016

My setup is hard wired (usb) and does not involve a computer or streaming. Hard drive-to-Oppo-to-DAC.

footwedge · October 2016

@steveinaz

are you able to view your library/folders on your TV, phone and ipad?

machone · October 2016

steveinaz,
My Marantz SA8500 will read wav files via usb directly from a hard drive/thumb drive.
One must use the front panel display to navigate to the folders. No dsd hooked up this way.

heiney9 · October 2016

steveinaz wrote: »

My setup is hard wired (usb) and does not involve a computer or streaming. Hard drive-to-Oppo-to-DAC.

The issue really isn't wired vs. wireless. You still have to convert to flac to put on the HD, the Oppo is the playback method and you still have digital to analog conversion involved. So just because yours is hardwired, doesn't exempt or trump any of the inherent issues mentioned.

But as I said, using my methods, I don't hear a difference between wav or flac. Flac has been my standard for going on 10 years.

Streaming to me is like Pandora or other "service". I suppose in the strictest sense by me using a wireless connection I am streaming my own music. But streaming isn't the culprit here (like streaming your own flac files from a computer to wireless component like a Squeezebox).

There are unique and specific issues you can have with wireless streaming such as distance and materials in walls, floors and ceilings that can create issues. But if you have a solid wireless signal it's the same as a Ethernet connection. (in the case of the Squeezebox)

heiney9 · October 2016

Also anyone using Windows media to playback or extract files is at a severe handicap. As Dskip said "windows media player" is a dirty word. So much garbage attached to it.

H9

tonyb · October 2016

Agreed with the windows media player. If your trying to do comparisons with file formats thru that media player, you won't hear sheet, everything will sound the same. The same garbage that is. Probably the single worst thing you can have in the chain for streaming audio. Unless your just doing background music and can give a rats behind about SQ, then your good to go.

tonyb · October 2016

steveinaz wrote: »

My setup is hard wired (usb) and does not involve a computer or streaming. Hard drive-to-Oppo-to-DAC.

There's a reason your setup has to be hardwired.

Your married to Calamity Jane, I imagine the joint is filled with gun smoke most the time making it hard for those Wi-Fi signals to bounce around.

steveinaz · November 2016

footwedge wrote: »

@steveinaz

are you able to view your library/folders on your TV, phone and ipad?

Yes. Oppo Media Control app

steveinaz · November 2016

heiney9 wrote: »

Also anyone using Windows media to playback or extract files is at a severe handicap. As Dskip said "windows media player" is a dirty word. So much garbage attached to it.

H9

THAT was my point, by pointing out that I'm not hearing differences--but I also don't have a PC mucking up the works. My setup is simple and direct; so maybe people who are reporting hearing differences between flac and wav might have something else going on in their system.

tonyb · November 2016

Amen Skip, like we keep sayin', everything matters.....even with digital.

honestaquarian · November 2016

In addition to running files from my computer I also have a 3 terabyte network backup (*meaning it is connected to my router instead of directly to the Oppo via USB*) hard drive that MOST of my music is on.
I am wondering how many of yous guys came over my house when I wasn't home and listened to my system and came to the conclusion that you couldn't hear a difference.
If I am streaming over my network from the backup hard drive to my Oppo does Windows media Player get involved?
I forgot to mention the differences that I heard were ALL coming from the backup hard drive streaming to the Oppo.

heiney9 · November 2016

If you change a single variable when comparing then the comparison isn't apples to apples.

It sounds as if some of you are doing "this" when listening to one format and then doing "that" when listening to another format and then claiming there are differences.

Well, duh! If you are changing a variable, then there is a good possibility the variable is what's causing the differences.

When I read these comparison threads I think that not changing a variable is a GIVEN, but I should never assume that.

H9

honestaquarian · November 2016

I never changed anything
I just forgot to mention the music was streaming from the backup hard drive and not from the computer.

heiney9 · November 2016

I wasn't necessarily talking about you. It was just a general comment. But yes, more precise posts makes for less interpretation.

Flac vs wav vs cd sound difference

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