thoughts about equalisers and sound shapers

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leftwinger57
leftwinger57 Posts: 2,917
edited July 2013 in 2 Channel Audio
I was just wondering about how improvement if any would a graphic equaliser or sound shaper make on a 2 chl system.We used to see them all the time SAE was famous for them and ADC plus many other brands. If, like I have the Onkyo P-301 pre and does a good job of dialing the sound your looking for are the equs any benifit for those finite adjustments or just another device in the stream clouding the mix.
2chl- Adcom GFA- 555-Onkyo P-3150v pre/amp- JVC-QL-A200 tt- Denon 1940 ci cdp- Adcom GFS-6 -Modded '87 SDA 2Bs - Dynamat Ext.- BH-5- X-Overs VR-3, RDO-194 tweeters, Larry's Rings, Speakon/Neutrik I/C- Cherry stain tops Advent Maestros,Ohm model E

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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,640
    edited July 2013
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    I think EQs can be beneficial if you have severe room correction to deal with.
    If you have a good neutral listening space, then I think they tend to add unwanted color.

    Just my humble opinion.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • Mikey081057
    Mikey081057 Posts: 7,127
    edited July 2013
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    I don't even have bass and treble controls on my 2 channel rig. Even when I did, I never used them. Always set everything to flat.
    My New Year's resolution is 3840 × 2160

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,100
    edited July 2013
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    Just say no...
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    edited July 2013
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    Evil, evil, evil. 'Nuff said.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2013
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    DSP before D/A conversion is fine, anything afterwards raises the noise floor.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • nspindel
    nspindel Posts: 5,343
    edited July 2013
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    +1 for no tone controls or EQ. If you don't like how your gear sounds, get different gear.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited July 2013
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    Face wrote: »
    DSP before D/A conversion is fine, anything afterwards raises the noise floor.

    I suspect you will see this become standard as time goes by even in two channel gear. Room correction software will help bring out the best in any room.
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  • leftwinger57
    leftwinger57 Posts: 2,917
    edited July 2013
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    Gotcha, Mass unapproval. Never owned one and have 0 intention of getting one .Just wondering.
    2chl- Adcom GFA- 555-Onkyo P-3150v pre/amp- JVC-QL-A200 tt- Denon 1940 ci cdp- Adcom GFS-6 -Modded '87 SDA 2Bs - Dynamat Ext.- BH-5- X-Overs VR-3, RDO-194 tweeters, Larry's Rings, Speakon/Neutrik I/C- Cherry stain tops Advent Maestros,Ohm model E

    H/T- Toshiba au40" flat- Yamaha RX- V665 avr- YSD-11 Dock- I-Pod- Klipsch #400HD Speaker set-

    Bdrm- Nikko 6065 receiver- JBL -G-200s--Pioneer 305 headphones--Sony CE375-5 disc
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited July 2013
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    Mikey081057 wrote: »
    I don't even have bass and treble controls on my 2 channel rig. Even when I did, I never used them. Always set everything to flat.

    I bet you might give these a try, bass and treble on the right.

    product-preamp-1.jpg

    http://www.dagostinoinc.com/
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,558
    edited July 2013
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    Mixed feelings. My 2 channel doesn't have bass/treble. The real problem is what you think you hear that
    is wrong. I have played with Foobar eq with headphones. I tried doing it by ear, and it didn't really work.
    I then pulled out some posted charts of the frequency response, and that pinpointed an issue
    at 9k. There was a nasty peak. Made the adjustment- all was good. EQ can be good, but most
    people including myself have trouble pinpointing the problem bands to make the adjustments to.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • Fongolio
    Fongolio Posts: 3,516
    edited July 2013
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    I'm going to boldly state that I love what my ADC Soundshaper III does to correct room and (sometimes) poorly mastered music. I've tried listening with all tone and EQ off but just end up finding it too flat and not lively enough. The traditional "happy face" curve on the equalizer makes the room sound more neutral. This is confirmed with a spectrum analyzer. I've set the room to dead neutral with the spectrum analyzer and it's close to what my ears prefer. The room also has some treatments but without the eq I'd be tweaking forever until I found what I liked. The ADC I'm using is very quiet and in my opinion takes nothing away. When I bypass it when it's set to neutral on all frequencies I can hear no change in sound whatsoever. I've never understood this trend toward no tone controls or sound shapers. When used correctly and with good quiet equipment they can add greatly to one's musical enjoyment. Flame ON!!!!
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  • chungasrevenge
    chungasrevenge Posts: 19
    edited July 2013
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    I've used mine for years, no intention of not using it.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,522
    edited July 2013
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Evil, evil, evil. 'Nuff said.

    Exactly, it's a "more harm than good" scenario 90% of the time; AND it's adding another box full of electronics in the chain.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,558
    edited July 2013
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    Once again it's a tool. Not always the right tool for the job. And don't cut
    off a finger using it.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
    edited July 2013
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    I use one but think of it as using spice on good chow...a little improves the taste...too much ruins it!
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    edited July 2013
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    steveinaz wrote: »
    Exactly, it's a "more harm than good" scenario 90% of the time; AND it's adding another box full of electronics in the chain.

    Bingo....though I can understand why some want to use one. A cheap alternative to switching out gear. Back in the day, I was always having to adjust mine with almost every song. One setting would sound good on a certain recording but horrible on another. Pain in the arse if you ask me and worth less than a paper weight these days.
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited July 2013
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    Rule#1....do no harm

    Rule#2 ...the more buttons, switches and knobs, generally, the worse it sounds (George Grand, of the Jersey Grands)
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    edited July 2013
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    Rule #2 is somewhat true....in the world of 2 channel anyway.

    When you look at some higher end processors from Anthem,Cary and the likes, you see lots of buttons but SQ certainly is no slouch even for 2 channel.

    Rule #1 should be....if you like what you hear, leave it the f#$k alone. :cheesygrin:
    HT SYSTEM-
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    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
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  • Jhayman
    Jhayman Posts: 1,548
    edited July 2013
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    But some of them had really cool multicoloured lights that bounce or dance with the music, lol
    I think they called them Spectrum Analyzers then I thought they were really cool but I have Grown since then,lol
    Just food for thought, if you like the way it makes your music sound then use it that's all that matters, your Ears..
    F1nut wrote: »
    Evil, evil, evil. 'Nuff said.
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  • brianle
    brianle Posts: 572
    edited July 2013
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    Rule #1: There is no rule :cheesygrin: if you like what you hear in your system, then go for it
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  • bmor
    bmor Posts: 44
    edited July 2013
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    Would it be fair to say you can draw a line between traditional analogue equalisers and those that operate in the digital domain, like MiniDSP, Dspeaker anti-mode and some of the Behringer products? I recently used REW to identify some suspected room modes giving me trouble and now want to try some room correction. I didn't even consider using an old school equaliser, not wanting to add more stuff in the chain as others have mentioned, but I'm leaning towards the MiniDSP OpenDRC-DI for an all digital solution.
    2 CH - SB Touch, CA 840C, CA 840Av2, PSB Imagine T
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  • Mikey081057
    Mikey081057 Posts: 7,127
    edited July 2013
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    I bet you might give these a try, bass and treble on the right.

    product-preamp-1.jpg

    http://www.dagostinoinc.com/

    Correct you are sir... If you have a spare on laying around send it may way... I will even pay fedex overnite. They were on the cover of one of the audio rags, and it is **** for sure.
    My New Year's resolution is 3840 × 2160

    Family Room| Marantz AV7704| Usher Dancer Mini - 2 DMD Mains |Usher Dancer Mini-x DMD's Surrounds | Usher BE-616 DMD Center | SVS Ultra Rear Surrounds | Parasound Halo A21 | Parsound Halo A52+ | MIT Shotgun S3's | Dual SVS SB 4000 Ultras | Oppo UDP 203 | Directv Genie HD DVR | Samsung 75" Q8 QLED | PSAudio Stellar GCD | Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ | Lumin U1 Mini | HP Elite Slice PC | ROON'd for life |

    ManCave: HT:Polk LSiM 706VR3 LSiM 703's LSiM 702's|| Marantz AV7002 AV PrePro Sunfire TGA-7401| Sony PS4 Pro| Sony PS4 Pro|SVS PB13 Ultra| Oppo UDP 203 | Music Hall MMF 5.3se TT w/ Soundsmith Carmen | Samsung 55" SUHD TV | Sony PS4

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  • specd_out
    specd_out Posts: 505
    edited July 2013
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    I am actually getting my dads adc sound shaper 2 soon. Looking forward to learning with it. I currently have been using rew to help with room correction through my pc and plan on getting a mini dsp for everything else.

    The whole eq thing is new to me and having physical sliders will help me learn easier what sounds/instruments are in what freq range.I have heard that people run the we in the tape loop, so they can engage it or listen to straight. Plus all the rows of leds is pretty cool looking.
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  • joeparaski
    joeparaski Posts: 1,865
    edited July 2013
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    I run an SAE parametric EQ. I've run eq's in my system since the 80's and I wouldn't go without one. Running things flat just sounds.....flat. I like to spice it up.

    Joe
    Amplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2013
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    bmor wrote: »
    Would it be fair to say you can draw a line between traditional analogue equalisers and those that operate in the digital domain, like MiniDSP, Dspeaker anti-mode and some of the Behringer products? I recently used REW to identify some suspected room modes giving me trouble and now want to try some room correction. I didn't even consider using an old school equaliser, not wanting to add more stuff in the chain as others have mentioned, but I'm leaning towards the MiniDSP OpenDRC-DI for an all digital solution.
    Behringer's DSP amps use the cheapest DSP chips available, I'd avoid them. MiniDSP can sound good if you feed it a digital signal and know what you're doing. If you have a room with bass trouble, multiple subs is your answer: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf If you absolutely need EQ bass frequencies, get a sub and amp with a lot of headroom.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Thorton
    Thorton Posts: 1,324
    edited July 2013
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    Face wrote: »
    Behringer's DSP amps use the cheapest DSP chips available, I'd avoid them. MiniDSP can sound good if you feed it a digital signal and know what you're doing. If you have a room with bass trouble, multiple subs is your answer: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf If you absolutely need EQ bass frequencies, get a sub and amp with a lot of headroom.

    +1. From my very limited experience, this did make things much easier for me in my large room for 2 channel. However, I do want to explore multeq xt32 or an add-on bass management to see if I can improve further.
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  • bmor
    bmor Posts: 44
    edited July 2013
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    Face, thanks for the link, interesting read. In my case my 2 channel rig is in the living room so even one sub is probably out of the question, let alone multiples. I think I'll be ordering an OpenDRC-DI to play with this winter.
    2 CH - SB Touch, CA 840C, CA 840Av2, PSB Imagine T
    HT - Pioneer 1325, Emo UPA-1, MA Silver RS series 7.1
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