New Pioneer Elite Receivers, let's talk SC55/57

F1nut · August 2011

Thanks Lush.

I noted that the guy doing the Audioholics testing is taking liberties with his conclusions.

SRTer · August 2011

F1nut wrote: »

Why would one want to look at 2 channels driven if one is using 5 or 7?

A good question also, I was thinking the same as my trust setup is 5.1 surround.

tonyb · August 2011

Because the 2 channel driven number is always higher, which sells receivers. All you really have to do is look at the power supply they put in a given receiver. Some may say x receiver has a 350 watt power supply, then tell you it is a 7 channel at 100 watts each, when in reality, the numbers don't add up.

SRTer · August 2011

F1nut wrote: »

Thanks Lush.

I noted that the guy doing the Audioholics testing is taking liberties with his conclusions.

Am I to assume that these liberties are more like a bias. I'm not sure how to take and apply what has been recently shared.

Nevertheless, I'm enjoying this thread more and more. Please release more knowledge and information for study.

Thank you all.

cstmar01 · August 2011

Hmm I was thinking of getting one of newer SC37's when I end up getting the Mythos ST's in the spring time for HT and moving my SC05 into a bedroom set up. I'm excited to see how these compare.

and my SC-05 was able to handle the A9s easily. Granted an amp did still help them out but regardless I was happy with the SC for awhile.

WilliamM2 · August 2011

I like the new brushed aluminum finish. Now it will match my other gear.

LuSh · August 2011

I'm a little confused by your statement F1nut.

mantis · August 2011

cstmar01 wrote: »

Hmm I was thinking of getting one of newer SC37's when I end up getting the Mythos ST's in the spring time for HT and moving my SC05 into a bedroom set up. I'm excited to see how these compare.

and my SC-05 was able to handle the A9s easily. Granted an amp did still help them out but regardless I was happy with the SC for awhile.

I really don't think they sound any different under normal conditions. The 5 and 7 series sound slightly different giving the edge to the 7 series. I have had them on the same speakers and heard better dynamics and detail from the 7's over the 5's which to me much come down to the preamp section as I believe the amp section is basically Identical.

mantis · August 2011

I'm eagerly waiting for the SC57 to hit our showroom so I can take it home and demo the piss out of it. I want to do a full head to head. The Dual sub out's are killing me as well as I{ control and Airplay. I'm so in on all those things it better sound at least as good. I'm cool if it's a stale mate in sound quality with the new features I really want and kinda need.

F1nut · August 2011

LuSh wrote: »

I'm a little confused by your statement F1nut.

Ok, here's a few examples.

(Pio) - Driving 4-ohm loads was an entirely different story. The SC-07 simply fell apart when running full bandwidth (20Hz to 20kHz) continuous power measurements. As I tested at frequencies above 5kHz with only 1 channel driven, the internal cooling fan would instantly come on right before the receiver would go into gross distortion and shut down at levels above 100 watts. With two-channels driven, I was able to squeeze out a clean 150wpc at less than 0.5% THD. Anything higher would again run the amps into gross distortion and shut off the receiver. I was a bit perplexed in how the receiver managed to better cope with 2 channels driven over 1 and could only surmise that it had something to do with symmetrical load balancing on the power supply. How this receiver was awarded the THX Ultra2 rating was a bit perplexing to me.

He alludes to the symmetrical load balancing design, yet wonders why it doesn't perform well with only one channel driven. HELLO! Besides, who the hell runs only one channel?

(Yammie) - The Yamaha was also a bit more powerful driving 8 ohm loads (170wpc vs 150wpc of the Pioneer).

Once again, he refers to the one channel driven numbers (yet says loads as in plural) when in reality they are just about equal (155 vs. 150) with two channels driven.

(Pio) - The amplifier damping factor is about what I expected based on the measured output impedance. It is uniformly good across the entire audio frequency range at around the 60 mark (50 is a minimum we like to see in all amplifiers of uncompromising design) when driving an 8-ohm loads. Into 4-ohm loads the Damping factor is roughly 1/2 the 8-ohm value as expected.

(Yammie) - The amplifier damping factor is about what I expected based on the measured output impedance. It is uniformly good across the entire audio frequency range at around the 80 mark (50 is a minimum we like to see in all amplifiers of uncompromising design) when driving an 8 ohm loads. Into 4 ohm loads the Damping factor is exactly as expected, ? the 8 ohm value and demonstrates that the Z7 is happy to drive low impedance loads at full power without much fuss.

So, they both perform the same, which means that the Pio is equally comfortable driving 4 ohm loads (with at least 2 channels driven because of the Pio design), but he makes it seem as though the Yammie is somehow better suited for 4 ohm loads.

Talk about twisting the facts. :rolleyes:

LuSh · August 2011

Very valid points F1nut, I still enjoyed the ACD Fallacy article and I still think the ACD is a horrible way of determining how powerful a unit is. I'll take 2 channel test over the entire range at a number of impedances rather then the garbage HT magazine puts out. Over looking the symmetrical load balancing was unprofessional, but the HT article could lead one to believe in real world usage the SC07 was twice as powerful. Which it is clearly not.

SRTer · August 2011

After reading everything LuSh and F1nut posted, as well as linked articles. I have come to a small conclusion.

It is important to look for 2 channel power bench test at mutiple levels of resistance.

I do find it strange that LuSh doesn't see that the 2 channel ratings Home Theater Mag came up with are similar to those of Audioholics. Albeit, without further inspection the Audioholics editor went into.

I'm not surprised by the performance of the SC-07 at 4 ohms because Pioneer does not expressively list or suggest anything according to running 4 ohm speakers which can dip lower that your typical 8 ohm or 6 ohm speakers which is what it seems the SC-07 was built for.

The articles all agree that the SC-07 was more than capable of powering the run of the mill 8 ohm speakers types with 90 db sensitivity give or take a few dB.

All one can assume is that the SC-07 is better with a 6-8 ohm speaker. This does not remotely group all the SC's with B&O ICE amps(SC-25/27, SC-35/37) in to the same boat. There are slight differences because the SC-37 didn't bench test the same as the SC-07. Therefore, we can smear all the SC's

The new SC's (SC-55/57) are totally excluded from these comments until tested by various sources.

I loved the respectful exchange of information, ideals, and opinions that this thread has generated. I have spent 2 days reading the Audioholics reviews and informational articles. They have been helpful and I rank them near the top of my reference material.

I hope everyone review the SC-55/57, then we will know the worth of these new non-ICE amp AVR's

I personally think they wlll show and prove Pioneer is still in the mid to highend market.

LuSh · August 2011

SRTer,

Take all articles with a grain of salt. I have a very close Friend who owns an SC05 and I personally think it sounds great. I have never questioned it's power even with lower impedance speakers however I don't agree with ACD tests nothing more nothing less.

F1nut · August 2011

LuSh wrote: »

Take all articles with a grain of salt.

Sage advice, my friend.

mantis · August 2011

I can add much to this debate with personal and professional experience.
I owned a full Dynaudio Audience system which every speaker was 4 ohms and 86 to 88db. I was nervous as hell to even try to run that system off the SC-07 which I purchased it. I originally purchased it as a preamp until something came along that I could fall in love with. At that time I could not one that I really wanted. It was a strange time in preamps.
So I removed my Rotel RMB-1095 and tried the SC-07 as a receiver. I was actually sweating trying it not wanting to see protection come up on the screen. But then I sat back and started watching a movie. I had the volume ruffly around -20db which is moderate and plenty loud enough to enjoy a movie. Then I started to turn it up till I hit -10. I was really nervous but lost myself in what I was watching. 2 hours later no clipping no problems.
The next day I started to compare music to the RMB1095 and at moderate levels I noticed no sonic improvement with the Rotel amp over the internal. Dynamics and clarity stayed exactly the same. It's something I have noticed over the years using receivers as preamps that the systems dynamics seem to track exactly the way the receivers amps do until you really crank it. Even then the Ice amps really impressed me. I could not believe a receiver that only cost 2200.00 could handle a pretty hard 4 ohm load entire system for long periods of time.
In the field at that time I was only using easy to drive paradigm and Definitive Technology speakers so I never stressed tested the receiver. But then when the SC2 series came out we tries some Vanderstein speakers and man they really shined on the SC receivers. I was again very impressed.

I have Installed the SC models in very large Dedicated theater rooms running 7.1 7.2 type systems and never once did it even break a sweat.

I believe real world testing is much better then these bench testings. I think it's something to seriously look at when considering a new receiver. It's also I believe a much better choice to read actual owners and hear how they feel it performed in their system. It's also an even better idea to talk to the pro's who actually have real world experience and are honest enough to share the good and bad about the product you are looking to purchase.
I will say this , if I found something about the Sc models I didn't like or felt they wouldn't perform in a X type room or with a X type speaker , I would gladly spill the beans. No product is perfect but these SC model receivers are the most impressive since the B&K avr307 came out. I have yet to hear a receiver sound or perform better all around at these price points. NAD and Rotel both make fantastic receivers as well as Cambridge Audio but I can find many faults past sound quality that keeps me from moving to them. B&K fell off the earth and I'm just patiently waiting from them to make a huge come back like Pioneer Sharp Elite is trying to do.

So if anyone has any questions about the SC models except the new 5 series , I'm your guy. Once I get those 5's in my hands I'll do a full report and review.

Until then

SRTer · August 2011

Mantis, what do you do for a living? You install HT and other audio goodies or own a store?

mantis · August 2011

SRTer wrote: »

Mantis, what do you do for a living? You install HT and other audio goodies or own a store?

Custom In Home Audio Video Installer/ Programmer / Calibrator / System Designer. Or just call me slash.

New Pioneer Elite Receivers, let's talk SC55/57

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