My Amp Keeps blowing a fuse...

2

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  • TECHNOKID
    TECHNOKID Posts: 4,298
    edited March 2011
    zingo wrote: »
    Because you've been very helpful and knowledgable Technokid, I'll point this one toward you. I was just playing around with my DMM and found that one setting had a capacitor symbol. I hooked it up to a new cap I have laying around and the DMM showed that is measured right on. Since I'm now assuming that the cap setting on the DMM works correctly and that I'm using it correctly, couldn't I desolder the questionable caps from the amp and test their value? Wouldn't them testing with a correct value deem that they are working correctly, or would I still need to test them with an ESR meter?
    If your DMM covers the proper range for the caps measuring them of the circuit is not a bad idea however, while the cap may measure properly you will not know for sure if the ESR value was not changed at all unless you do use an ESR meter.
    DARE TO SOAR:
    “Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life” ;)
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited March 2011
    Thanks for the clarification!
    Jake
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    Jake,

    You still waiting for the tuberfier / rectifier tube yet?
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited March 2011
    I just got the pair of new tubes and fuses in the mail, and I hope to have enough time to run it tonight after work. To start I need to re-terminate my dummy loads to have the safest possible bench test.
    Jake
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited March 2011
    So..... the whole things was much ado about nothing. :smile:

    It was just a bad rectifier tube and nothing more complicated than that! The tunes are flowing and life is good! Ian and Rachel from Grant Fidelity sent me an upgraded pair of Shuguang red label 5AR4 rectifier tubes over the previous brown label, which should give them more life and reliability.
    Jake
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited March 2011
    I many stated changed the tube first. Glad you got her working again, now sit back and enjoy it. :smile:

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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited March 2011
    Now that my 300B amp is better than new with new tubes and the recent $800 worth of Jantzen caps, I'm tempted to switch to an SS integrated amp that is horn friendly, even though this is the best integrated amp I've owned. I'm not a fan of the maintenance even though it is infrequently, and now that my 5 month old daughter is on the move and likes to stick her fingers through tube cages, etc...

    I've had my eye on Red Wine Audio, Plinius, and Bryston among other; any feedback?
    Jake
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    I can certainly understand the concern about the little one............but I have 3 tube pieces and not a single issue in over a year. What kind of maintenance issues do you have or do you anticipate? I'm telling you from experience use some NOS tubes (especially at the rectifier position) and the issue of blowing tubes will be greatly reduced. Of course, if your ready to move on then so be it.

    I would take a Mullard over anything currently produced at moment for both longevity and performance.

    Just my .02c

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    Good deal! It's nice to know Tuberfier fixed the issue. You should always have a few spare sets of tubes for anything Tubey.
    zingo wrote: »
    Now that my 300B amp is better than new with new tubes and the recent $800 worth of Jantzen caps, I'm tempted to switch to an SS integrated amp that is horn friendly, even though this is the best integrated amp I've owned. I'm not a fan of the maintenance even though it is infrequently, and now that my 5 month old daughter is on the move and likes to stick her fingers through tube cages, etc...

    I've had my eye on Red Wine Audio, Plinius, and Bryston among other; any feedback?

    I don't consider swapping / changing tubes a maintenance. It's part of the tuber life. :biggrin:

    If you are going for integrated SS that is Horn Friendly, look for the real Class A Integrated since you don't need a lot of power. So, I am saying the Plinius, Bryston and Red Wine out of the picture.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited March 2011
    I can cough-up a couple grand of any of the above mentioned integrated amps, but $7k for the Pass integrated in definitively out of my budget... :biggrin:
    Jake
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    No need to go Pass and cough up 7K. Check Agon. There are real Class A Integrated from Luxman and Accuphase for around a couple grand. You can get 30WPC real Class A for about that.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    Not sure who does a "real" Class A integrated besided Pass Labs. I'm sure there are several "quasi" class A offerings.

    Does it have to be an integrated? Lots of used First Watt stuff for sale. f1 or f2 0r f3 f5 and a nice passive/line stage pre would be stellar, but still probably looking at around $3K. Audiogon has new(revised) f1 or f2 from Reno Hifi for $1995. Great dealer and in home audtion.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    At least a handful make real Class A Integrated other than Pass. I guess Pass follows in this area a lot later than the Japanese brands.

    It's not Quasi Class A that I am talking about here. It could be Class A SE or Class A Push-pull but they are real Class A. There are lots of older ones from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and early 2000s you can buy under 2K.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    Ok James, not going to get into what constitutes "real Class A" but very few were doing it in the 70's and 80's. Most of those (not all) were what we would consider "quasi" class A. The only "real" class A is single ended in my mind, the rest are A/B.

    No such thing as a Class A push/pull amplfier (that's A/B), again because pure class A operation is single ended.

    Real and Pure mean the same to me, and that means single ended. There are even highly regarded manufacturer's out there right now marketing their amps as Single Ended Class A and if you push them to explain they admit it's not real class A, but high bias A/B push=pull. These amps sound good, but are very misleading.

    This is not an arguement, I'm simply stating how I interpret those terms so you can understand where I'm coming from.

    H9

    P.s. There is a real sonic difference between Single Ended Class A and High Bias A/B also marketed as Class A. Please don't think I'm saying one is better than the other because it's all about personal preference.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    Thanks for clarification Brock. I stand by my words and will use the term REAL Class A coz some are not Class A SE. You can call Class A SE PURE Class A but there are other Real Class A amps out there that does not stepped into the boundaries of Class B.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    It's a matter of semantic's it's either single ended or push/pull (A/B). If the output is biased high enough and the user never drives the amp hard enough to swing to the pull side of the output then yes many consider that to be class A operation.

    Not a lot of those out there because the hardware needs to be heaftier than average if you are going to run that much bias through the output devices.

    Pass' XA series is an example of the above and you'll notice it does get called class A so I'm willing to concede that point, but many, many manufacturer's over use, mis-use the term Class A because it adds certain credibility to a design. It's a "buzz" word that is often far over used when it's simply not true, unless one is willing to really stretch the definition of Class A.

    Anyway that's my take on it.........back to your regularly scheduled program.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    Brock, Let me say that again since I think you misunderstood why I used the word REAL Class A.

    Regardless of it's either Class A SE (pure) or other type of REAL Class A coz they never leave into Class B region in all stages, Jake can find a nice Integrated for around 2K.

    Around 2K, there are choices depending on what's available on the used market. That's why I don't want to restrict to the word Pure Class A. There are other Real Class A amps that is sonically very similar to Class A SE. Of coz, I would prefer Pure Class A if I can but it depends what is available and not to hold a breath over this Pure or Real word.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    The thing is there is class A and class A/B that's it.

    Class A is single ended and can't be push/pull

    Class A/B is push/pull and can't be single ended.

    There is no "class A because it never switches to B", that is still a push/pull A/B amplifier. The output stage is either single ended or push/pull, single ended is Class A, push/pull is A/B.

    You can call it real, pure, whatever, it doesn't change the fact that it's either class A, which is single ended or it's A/B which is push/pull.

    I'm sorry for the literal interpretation, but that's how I see it.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    Anyway sorry to take this off track, I'm done talking about A A/B.

    Jake, there are a lot of nice amps out there as James has mentioned. If it were me I'd keep the 300B because tubes are so sweet on horns, and unless you spend a lot on SS for horns I don't think you'll get the same results.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited March 2011
    I certainly don't want to take this further off the track. But, you can have a class A amplifier with a push-pull output stage. It results in the ability to use a smaller output transformer core due to the canceling of the quiescent anode currents.
    The benefit is an improvement in high frequency response due to the reduction of stray capacitances in the core. However, the output tubes need to be carefully matched to prevent DC magnetization and usually there is an adjustment for DC balance. Also power supply hum is significantly reduced.
    This design works best with triodes as the output device, since they produce mostly even-order distortion and the push-pull output will cancel even order distortion and odd-order distortion is summed (which pentodes produce more of).
    Ultralinear anyone?
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited March 2011
    Congrats on the fix Jake.
    megasat16 wrote: »
    I stand by my words and will use the term REAL Class A coz some are not Class A SE. You can call Class A SE PURE Class A but there are other Real Class A amps out there that does not stepped into the boundaries of Class B.
    Agreed.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    Kenneth Swauger wrote: »
    I certainly don't want to take this further off the track. But, you can have a class A amplifier with a push-pull output stage. It results in the ability to use a smaller output transformer core due to the canceling of the quiescent anode currents.
    The benefit is an improvement in high frequency response due to the reduction of stray capacitances in the core. However, the output tubes need to be carefully matched to prevent DC magnetization and usually there is an adjustment for DC balance. Also power supply hum is significantly reduced.
    This design works best with triodes as the output device, since they produce mostly even-order distortion and the push-pull output will cancel even order distortion and odd-order distortion is summed (which pentodes produce more of).
    Ultralinear anyone?

    Ken I was strictly talking transistors since that's what Jake (Zingo) indicated he was looking for.

    Great info :smile:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited March 2011
    Oops, sorry! I always find your postings interesting, H9, and they get me thinking about all things audio!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    Kenneth Swauger wrote: »
    Oops, sorry! I always find your postings interesting, H9, and they get me thinking about all things audio!

    Thanks Ken, I know just enough to be dangerous :tongue:. I hope I don't come off too preachy, because that's not my intent. I just love learning about what makes good audio reproduction sound good.

    I always enjoy your posts as well.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    I looked on the Agon and the fleabay for some nice Class A integrated SS amps but I don't see any from Luxman or Accuphase at this time. So, keep searching....
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited March 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    ... it doesn't change the fact that it's either class A, which is single ended or it's A/B which is push/pull.
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Pass' XA series is an example of the above and you'll notice it does get called class A so I'm willing to concede that point,
    That appears to be a contradiction.:smile:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,421
    edited March 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    That appears to be a contradiction.:smile:

    Come on Fred you and I both know the output stage of the XA series and how the manufacturer rates the output is little different than the normal everyday amp and marketing literature.

    Pass is much more conservative on the output rating (and rates it's output in class A) and much more forthcoming on the design than some others. He could say the XA30.5 is a 150wpc class A amp, but he doesn't because it's not. That was my only point.

    If you can't tell, I'm still a little bitter and disappointed in that other unnamed manufacturer that completely misrepresents their product in their marketing literature.

    Hence my little rant :smile:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    Fred,

    He said Sorry so I decide to drop all charges. :biggrin:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited March 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Come on Fred you and I both know the output stage of the XA series and how the manufacturer rates the output is little different than the normal everyday amp and marketing literature.
    Certainly but just because some make false claims doesn't mean that a push/ pull Class A amplifier is not technically possible.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited March 2011
    megasat16 wrote: »
    Fred,

    He said Sorry so I decide to drop all charges. :biggrin:
    Your too nice.
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