Good debate on Bi wire and single runs.

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mantis
mantis Posts: 17,065
edited January 2004 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
OK,
So I visit this really hi end dealer the other day with my Partner and get talking about wire along other subjects.The wire thing really didn't stick out until I thought about it some more and now eager to try.

I was looking for some Kimber which he was out of stock of at the moment,and wanted to direct me into better quality cables but instead of a bi wire configuration,a sigle run with hi end jumpers.......huh...Well my first reaction was "dude your talking out your **** man".Salesman **** was also in mind..then he started showing us around his incredible hi end shop ,come to find out none of his speakers on the floor are bi wired....all single runs and jumpers.

So here's where I am.8tc/8tc bi wire is where my heart was...now I'm considering Monocle X single premades....with Kimber jumpers......

What would you do????
I haven't done the test yeat so I don't know what sounds better.At the end of the day,Sound quality is more Important then the wire configuration
DAN
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • ninerbj
    ninerbj Posts: 870
    edited January 2004
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    Mantis,
    What are jumpers anyway? I am lost. Instead of bi-wire or bi-amping, you run a single line nto kimber jumpers?

    sorry if this topic has been discussed before.

    brad
    "she had the body of Venus, with arms."
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,065
    edited January 2004
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    Bi wireable or bi ampable speakers from the factory come with metal jumper inbetween the posts.when you bi anything,you remove the jumpers.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • Shell
    Shell Posts: 134
    edited January 2004
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    If you think about electircal circuits this makes sense. It does not matter where the signal is split as long as it is before the speaker.
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  • gidrah
    gidrah Posts: 3,049
    edited January 2004
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    Mantis - We've discussed many times the possible benefits of swapping out the stock jumpers with quality wire. Where were you?
    Make it Funky! :)
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited January 2004
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    Originally posted by Shell
    If you think about electircal circuits this makes sense. It does not matter where the signal is split as long as it is before the speaker.

    There is a difference. If you bi-wire all the way from the receiver to the speakers, you have, in effect, doubled your wire gauge.
    Never Forget
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited January 2004
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    Just use this gecko:
    Never Forget
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2004
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    where can you buy that?
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited January 2004
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    I would bi-amp;)

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Stephen Swisher
    Stephen Swisher Posts: 3
    edited January 2004
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    Hi,

    I'm in the process of bi-wiring my RT12's to a brand new Harmon-Kardon 75 per channel receiver. Previously, on my old trouble laden JVC receiver (which I've now just replaced) I had the thickest Monster speaker cables you could get... Now, with my new Harmon-Kardon, I have Monster cable that around 1/2 less thick.

    In the Harmon-Kardon manual it says to get the thickest speaker cable you can get and that the lower number means the thicker the cable.

    Now, I just read in the last post on this thread that if you bi-wire your in essence creating a thicker cable by connecting 2 cables to the same posts... I was going to buy some more thicker cable (since I've ran out of that thickest "monster" spkr. cable, but now I don't know if it will be too thick, because of the last post here?

    Any suggestions would be appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Stephen
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  • RVJII
    RVJII Posts: 167
    edited January 2004
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    I'm looking at an experiment in DIY Bi-Wire and just wondered if anyone had input on the below materials:

    Banana Plugs: WBT Topline

    Raw Cable: Canare 4S11 OR AudioQuest Type 4

    I would be building the cables in a double run configuration.
    A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited January 2004
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    Originally posted by Stephen Swisher


    Now, I just read in the last post on this thread that if you bi-wire your in essence creating a thicker cable by connecting 2 cables to the same posts... I was going to buy some more thicker cable (since I've ran out of that thickest "monster" spkr. cable, but now I don't know if it will be too thick, because of the last post here?

    Any suggestions would be appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Stephen


    Its all about GIRTH bro.... Take it from an Italian:p

    HBom
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • dylan
    dylan Posts: 453
    edited January 2004
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    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    where can you buy that?
    I did a quick Google and only found this site... Gecko. $74.99?
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  • pjdami
    pjdami Posts: 1,894
    edited January 2004
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    mantis,

    Funny you should mention this from your hi-fi dealer. My dealer does the same thing. Single wire run and high quality jumpers.

    I have actually been down this road recently myself. Not with Kimber but with Transparent Music Wave. I have an eight foot pair of single run musicwave with the musicwave jumpers that I was running for a while. I compared this setup with Ixos Super Gamma 7 biwire on the LSi 15. The transparent was better sounding to me even though it was a single run with the jumpers.

    Then I found a good deal on some Transparent Musicwave bi-wire and tried that out on the LSi 15. Wow tough choice. I swapped around a couple of times to compare with the single run with jumpers and could not tell an immediate difference. I got lazy at that point and just kept the biwires in place. Right now I'm not even using the single run music wave with the jumpers. I really need to take some time and do a more thorough comparison since I have the wire available to do a good comparison.

    I remember you telling me once that some of the best sounding speakers in the world like Dynaudio are not biwireable. This in itself speaks in volumes no?

    You mention sound quality and I know that is of upmost importance with your expectations. but man, the jumpers can surely save you a bundle of money as you wouldn't need all the extra wire especially since the 8TC is pretty thick wire to begin with.

    If I get some time this weekend, I'll do a more thorough testing of the Transparent biwire vs. Single run with jumpers and let you know. Might get a friend to help me out with some blindfold testing.

    Paul
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  • RVJII
    RVJII Posts: 167
    edited January 2004
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    I'd be very interested to hear the results of your blind test mantis.
    A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,865
    edited January 2004
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    I'm using MIT jumpers with my MIT Shotgun bi-wires. I thought I was happy with the bi-wires, but read something about using jumpers and thought I'd try it. Damn if it doesn't sound better (smoother highs) with the jumpers in place. It has been awhile since I installed the jumpers and since I got some new gear recently, I thought I'd try it without the jumpers.....still better with them installed. Your results may vary, but no more bi-wires in my future.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • pjdami
    pjdami Posts: 1,894
    edited January 2004
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    Damn if it doesn't sound better (smoother highs) with the jumpers in place.

    This is some interesting info F1. I've been thinking about a tube DAC for my HT rig to help improve the highs a tad more. I'll try out the single run with the jumpers again on some music that is brightly recorded like one of the newer Sheryl Crow cds. I might have my solution sitting in my closet already!

    P.
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  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited January 2004
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    how much are the MIT jumpers? can't find it on the mitcables.com website.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,865
    edited January 2004
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    Paul,

    I think you might get better results with the tube dac and the jumpers, let us know.


    Phantom,

    Yeah, you won't find them on the website. You have to contact Joe Abrams at www.equusaudio@aol.com or 704.543.0076. He has a "special" relationship with MIT. I believe I paid $88.00 for mine, but it depends on length and style. Get in touch with him, he's a great guy.

    Jesse
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Stephen Swisher
    Stephen Swisher Posts: 3
    edited January 2004
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    It's not worth trying if you don't know that much about it (like me)
    I have totally screwed up my whole system with one little FATAL mistake on trying to "Bi-wire" correctly...

    I mean, what for: A little more mid-range (and that's if I get lucky and do it right, without blowing up my speakers!)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,865
    edited January 2004
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    Stephen,

    Just because you didn't know what the hell you were doing doesn't mean that it's not worth doing for others. There's nothing to it really, there is plenty of info here, at other websites and your local hi-fi shop, so you've got no excuse really.

    The results that someone gets or doesn't get are dependent on many factors including gear, speakers and wire used. It's not just the mid-range that could benefit.

    Sorry you screwed up your gear, tweaking is one of the fun parts of audio, but if you don't know what you're doing then ask or do some research first. Better luck in the future.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,065
    edited January 2004
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    gidrah,
    I was around and I have done it plenty of times in the past.Replacing the stock jumpers is something I do right out of the box.Like the Lsi9's I just picked up,The stock jumpers where out faster then I could get the speakers out of the box.

    My question/actually looking for experiences from people who played with the theory.

    So back on track here is runing a Bi wire at a certain level meaning the 8tc/8tc bi wires or going to the higher end Monocles x's with Kimber jumpers.Which sounds better to you and what was different.
    I talked to Kimber today and they feel the 8tc/8tc would yeild better performance over the monocles.They ahve there reasons why and they all made sence...BUT,
    I'm a real world eff the spec's and tech ****(I deal with it everyday of my life so)I like pure performance that I can hear.I don't give a rats **** why it's better or worse.Maybe after the fact is known which is perferrred,then the tech side is very nice to know.
    pjdami,

    yes some of the best(or in my opnion the best)speakers in the world don't offer the ability to bi anything.This is due to the superior design in the crossover.As "THEY" say anyway.
    Your wire shootout is cool.It's exactly what I wanna perform.Testing the same wire with there jumpers(meaning the wire companies not stock) vs there bi wire and hear if it sounds the same or different,good or bad like to listen.
    Then use there bi wire and then a single run of the next level up.

    This all started in this hi end shop I visited for the very first time.Everyone seems to have "THERE WAY" it's best approach.So considering that I think this is a very good subject to talk about other then learning WHAT IT IS,going deeper into it and listening to WHY and HOW......

    So when you do the next shootout,please post all your findings.Your wire is of very hi quality and should stand as a good test pig.....so to speak.

    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • ezc
    ezc Posts: 426
    edited January 2004
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    I have tried the single run w/jumpers & bi wire. I had Monster Z1 speaker cable with the stock jumpers on my LSi15 & wanted to try bi wire. I switched to Z2 Bi wire & what a difference it made to me, I was happy as I could have been with the improvement. But after reading & hearing more & more about better jumpers I made 2 pairs of Z1 jumpers & put the single Z1 back on. After playing a few CDs I felt that the cheaper Z1 cable with the Z1 jumper sounded almost as good or sometimes as good as the much more expensive Z2 Bi wire cable. I recently put the Z2 bi wire cables back on & the difference is minimal if any. I use Z1 cable for the rear FX & had stock jumpers, but replaced the stock jumpers with the z1 jumpers as soon as I took them off the 15's. How much better would it sound if I used better single run speaker cable or better jumpers?
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