SDA SRS bi-amp question (receiver and external amp)

audio_alanaudio_alan Posts: 770
edited November 2010 in Vintage Speakers
SDA gurus,

Ok, so I've searched the forums and I've seen threads about bi-amping SDAs with two external amps, but I can't find a discussion about exactly what I'm thinking of, so here goes:

Since an Adcom 555 II is common ground, and a Pioneer Elite is common ground, can I bi-amp a set of SDA SRS's by doing the following?

1) Pre-out of the Pioneer Elite into the Adcom, powering the lows
2) Use the regular speaker terminal posts of the Pioneer Elite to power the highs

(And of course remove the binding post jumpers on the speakers)

Will that violate the "common ground" required for SDA's? I've read people's concerns over different gain structures, etc, but thought as long as it won't cause any damage to my amps or speakers, what the heck!? It might sound great or it might sound like crap, but I won't know until I try it, right?

Thanks again for everyone's input...

Alan
Post edited by audio_alan on

Comments

  • ben62670ben62670 Posts: 16,077
    edited November 2010
    You won't hurt anything, but over and over people have tried BiAmping with piss poor results.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • audio_alanaudio_alan Posts: 770
    edited November 2010
    ben62670 wrote: »
    You won't hurt anything, but over and over people have tried BiAmping with piss poor results.

    Hmmm, I've seen some threads where people claimed bi-amping was beneficial, however that was with two separate amps...

    Or was your "piss poor" comment only in reference to attempting to bi-amp with a receiver and a separate amp?
  • ben62670ben62670 Posts: 16,077
    edited November 2010
    Your better off getting one set of good cables and using one amp. There are many threads on this topic.
    Take care
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,124
    edited November 2010
    Are you sure the Pio receiver will still power the speaker outputs when you use the pre-outs? Many receiver are either/or but not both.

    IMO, it's a waste to use a receiver to bi-amp. What is missing in the current set-up that you hope to improve by bi-amping? You need to study the problem before you can come up with a suitable solution, IMO.

    You may indeed have gains issues as well.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • Toolfan66Toolfan66 Posts: 14,266
    edited November 2010
    Pass on bi-amping. As stated above get better cables. I will also add in get better jumpers as well..
  • awe-d-o-fileawe-d-o-file Posts: 148
    edited November 2010
    I first biwired finding out how bad my jumpers were. I now bi-amp and it made a nice improvement as well. I luckily use two CJ amps that have the same gain/input impedance and sensitivity that allows an easy passive biamp. The second amp added another dimension and improvement to the image.

    I know the amps like seeing one driver/crossover load as opposed to two. Theres always a funky impedance curve near the Fs. Now each amp see's one not two.

    Your amps are different so who knows until you try. Good luck.


    ET


    ET

    System: MF Trivista SACD > Placette passive> CJ passive horizontal bi-amp> MF 2500A(LF) MF2100(HF) > 1.2TL's

    Other: Speltz silver Eichmann IC's & speaker wire, Econotweaks Detail Magnifiers, PS Audio P-300(source), R. Gray 600, Al Sekala's AC R/C filters, R. Gray HT PC's, Oyaide R-1's,WPC-Z , M-1, Herbie's & DIY Isolation
    Room: Qty 7 - 4' tall 18" diam. bass traps, Qty 4 - 4' X 2' X 4" panels. All DIY - man my wife is tolerant!
  • SchurkeySchurkey Posts: 1,896
    edited November 2010
    audio_alan wrote: »
    Since an Adcom 555 II is common ground, and a Pioneer Elite is common ground, can I bi-amp a set of SDA SRS's by doing the following?

    1) Pre-out of the Pioneer Elite into the Adcom, powering the lows
    2) Use the regular speaker terminal posts of the Pioneer Elite to power the highs

    (And of course remove the binding post jumpers on the speakers)

    What is the gain difference between the Pioneer and the Adcom?

    Sounds like a recipe for unequal power delivered to highs vs. lows.

    First Guess: The bass/midrange will overwhelm the treble unless you figure out a way to equalize the amplifier output.
  • TrashyTruckerTrashyTrucker Posts: 225
    edited November 2010
    audio_alan wrote: »
    ...some threads where people claimed bi-amping was beneficial, however that was with two separate amps...QUOTE]

    Hey alan,
    I have my SRS 3.1TL's biamped with 2 Hafler 9500 trans nova amps. I used to have them "Y"ed at the preouts for the fronts. But just recently I just upgraded AVR. Now I use up two sets of preouts on the AVR and did away with the "y"s. I am running 250wpc for the h's and 250wpc for the L's. IMO the soundstage is better defined, and more open sound. I believe I benefit from Biamping, although perhaps I may be going against the grain here. But to my ears it sounds better. More headroom perhaps? Think about it for a min. 1 separate PowerSupply for the highs (even though they may not require as much) and then 1 separate PS just for the lows.

    Although this hobby is expensive at times... It brings great joy when one can get lost into that certain track knowing that is what the artist intended for one to hear.


    Matt :biggrin:
    Integra DTR 50.2 used as a preamp
    Rotel RCD 1520 cdp
    AudioQuest Jaguar 72v dbs ic's
    AudioQuest type 8 wire
    biamped to:
    2-Hafler 9500 trans nova's
    AudioQuest NRG-3 power cable's
    dedicated AC line for
    Tesla Plex 20a duplex receptacle
    Panamax Max 7500 pro surge/line conditioner
    SDA SRS 3.1 TL's modded...
    spikes, rdo's, rings, dynamat, sonicaps, mills & aeon
    Panasonic Viera G20 50" plasma


    ...SDA's are just like candy for your ears...
  • audio_alanaudio_alan Posts: 770
    edited November 2010
    heiney9 - Yeah, using the pre-outs might turn off the speaker terminals, but the manual is a bit vague. It seems to suggest that they will stay on.

    Schurkey - I'm not sure about the gain structures, but thought I'd let my ears judge.

    Regarding the "Why do it?", I guess my response would be "Why not try it?". As long as I'm not going to blow up anything, it could be a fun experiment. Just like any other modifications that people try on their speakers, I'm just trying to see if I can get even better sound from the SRS's. Who knows, maybe I'll be the next guy on here saying bi-amping results in piss poor performance. If nothing else, it will be more experience...

    From the responses that I've already received, this is obviously another issue where people strongly disagree (just like speaker wire, tubes, interconnects, custom power cords, etc). At the risk of starting an audio holy war.... For those that say it's not worth it, would you say bi-amping is just a marketing ploy? Or is it so expensive to do correctly that it just isn't worth it? Or were you really just referring to my "two different amps" bi-amping suggestion?
  • rombotrombot Posts: 15
    edited November 2010
    I can tell you bi-amping is definitely not a marketing ploy.

    In-depth info on the pluses and minuses of bi-amping here:

    http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

    I've been bi-amping for years - with a 24/db electronic crossover between my subs and mains. It's an awesome setup. When I get time I'm going to mod and bi-amp my SDA-1Cs. At that point it will tri-amped :) I can't speak to bi-amping your SRSs.

    I totally agree with the "Why not try it?" mentality. I have almost as much fun trying different configurations as I do listening.

    Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
    This post SWMBO approved.
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