Whats up with Tube AMP ratings?

Deathjester
Deathjester Posts: 24
edited June 2010 in Electronics
Ok.. Did I miss something??

I'm starting to respect the elegance of tube amps, and Ive been reading a gathering information on tube amps. Looking on all the various resale sights to see ALL thats out there. But I'm confused on the ratings of these amps.

I'm reading claims of people using 20, 30, watt tube amps driving these huge speakers. And tube amps that are $3000.00 and they are only 8-watts

WTH????

Can someone tell me what the difference is? Are there HIGH powered tube amps??
~~Dj~~
Main System:
Onkyo TX-SV717PRO
Onkyo Integra M-504
Onkyo Integra EQ-540
Pioneer CT-F1250
Micro Seiki DD-40
Polk Audio 5A's 10A's
Post edited by Deathjester on

Comments

  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited June 2010
    :D Welcome to the wonderful world of niche market gear, that is 50 or more years old & is the latest "in" gear to have.

    Everything old is new again.:rolleyes:

    Just be prepared to pay a lot more money for the priviledge of being able to endlessly tweak your gear by switching tubes.

    Also be prepared to pay even MORE money for more watts.

    Just like everything else, yes the tubes can drive the speakers, but you will not be playing them very loud else you put the tubes at risk. If you are playing the speakers in a small room, you can probably get by with it. But the bigger the room, the more volume needed to fill said room, the more strain on the amp.

    The same is true for SS amps, the only difference is that a SS amp will more than likely go into protect mode & shut down, where as a tube amp will probably blow a tube.

    Oh yeah, the tubes aren't cheap either!

    But if you just HAVE to have the tube sound, or the "elegance" of the look...knock yourself out!:D
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,057
    edited June 2010
    Just be prepared to pay a lot more money for the privilege of being able to endlessly tweak your gear by switching tubes.
    While it is a privilege to be able to tube roll, it is only the hard to find, NOS or rare/highly sought after tubes that get can get quite expensive. Used tubes show up all the time at incredible discounts. Unless you have something like a Carver Silver9 tube amp with 20 KT-88's [48 tubes total for both mono-blocks], you will not be spending too gawd awful much on standard tubes.
    Also be prepared to pay even MORE money for more watts.
    Generally this is true but you have to keep in mind that depending on the efficiency of the speaker, 8 watts can provide more than enough power to run you out of the house because it's too loud. Think Klipsch. Another thing is that a 40 watt tube amp can provide a more powerful, clean and authoritative sound than a 300 watt amplifier. On the same system. a couple of years back, an 8 watt Radii tube amp smoked a Carver M4.0t in many aspects of the sound reproduction. The M4.0t was an SS amp rated around 300/325+- watts or so.

    It all depends. The efficiency and ohm rating [nominal and realistic] of the speakers as well as the design of the tube amp itself. Many, many factors are involved. With a good match, one doesn't need hundreds or thousands of watts to achieve great sound.
    Just like everything else, yes the tubes can drive the speakers, but you will not be playing them very loud else you put the tubes at risk.
    Cathy, that is simply not true. I have 80 tube watts that will wake the neighbors up from the grave and make your ears ring in short order if I wanted. Good thing I choose not to do play my music like that though. Although, on occasion, I'll slip up and flat out rock the hell out of the house foundation.
    If you are playing the speakers in a small room, you can probably get by with it. But the bigger the room, the more volume needed to fill said room, the more strain on the amp.
    That goes true with any amplifier in most cases, efficiency dependent of course.
    The same is true for SS amps, the only difference is that a SS amp will more than likely go into protect mode & shut down, where as a tube amp will probably blow a tube.
    While I may not be an authority on tubes due to my limited experience with them, I have heard many a tube system play incredibly loud and massively powerful and I have yet to see a tube blow due to loudness. Just with any amplifier, when you start to hear distortion? Turn it down and you won't have any issues.

    I'm starting to respect the elegance of tube amps, and Ive been reading a gathering information on tube amps. Looking on all the various resale sights to see ALL thats out there. But I'm confused on the ratings of these amps. I'm reading claims of people using 20, 30, watt tube amps driving these huge speakers. And tube amps that are $3000.00 and they are only 8-watts

    WTH????

    Can someone tell me what the difference is? Are there HIGH powered tube amps??
    Let me first start off by saying that there are $3000.00 SS amps that have hardly any watts as well. That mainly has to do with the manufacturer, whether they are custom built, one of a kind, built and/or designed by a particular company/person, etc...

    So, price aside, I think you are wrapping up the stereo world in watts and confusing that with amps. You can not do that if you expect to understand. They are two completely separate but interdependently related things. There are a multitude of things to consider when building a system. The best thing I can say is to get your learn on on what the difference between a watt, an amphere and an ohm rating is. This will help you to better understand what's going on. Just to be brief and to somewhat answer your question? Tube watts are not at all like SS watts.

    One other bit of advice.....do not ever, I repeat, do NOT EVER rely on specifications alone unless you want it to become your worst enemy when it comes to the accurate reproduction of music.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2010
    Tubes rule
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,057
    edited June 2010
    Oh, that too. Thanks George. It must be the heat.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2010
    To the OP--if you can,, get a copy of David Manley's book,

    http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Logic-Book/dp/B00178TD4S


    you'll have to search around for it,,Manley goes on to state that in most home audio applications,that 40-50 watts is sufficent to drive most speakers to a rational listening level.I drive my 1C's with 40 watts,and it gets plenty loud.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 35,165
    edited June 2010
    Sure there are powerful vacuum tube amps; the aforementioned David Manley's ex-wife, EveAnna "Vanimal" Manley sells a couple of nice examples.

    http://www.manleylabs.com/hifimain99.html (see the Neo-Classic 250 and 500 watt monoblocks, e.g.)

    But...

    The original post, to me, is along the lines of, "I hear that sex (or bungee-jumping, or parachuting or what-have-you) is really enjoyable, but it's kind of hard to believe. Can you explain it to me?"

    Go and do some listening.

    RSamps.jpg
    RSampsaglow.jpg



    I am wondering what boutique products Cathy's spent time listening to. Given her location, she might want to visit an NNETG shindig sometime (if she could tolerate a bunch of balding, mildly overweight, pale men for a while... but the music's great!)
    http://www.the-planet.org/nnetg.html

    For the OP, in most cases the rating of vacuum tube amp power is similar to the old FTC regulated spec; continuous watts into a defined load (most amps are transformer-coupled) at some audibly reasonable level of distortion ('reasonable' in the traditional context, is often taken as 1% THD, just to warn you).

    The push-pull 6V6 integrated mono amps currently on duty in my living room are good for about 10 watts each under such conditions.
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    I have some SS amps rated at 400wpc into 4ohms and they have digital watt meters with a peak hold function. What's surprised me the most, even when hooked up to my LSi 15s, is how little power actually goes into them at average listening levels. I don't listen to either music or home theater at low volumes. I'd say I start at medium and only go up from there.

    But the meters don't go much past 5 watts in an average listening session. If I really want some sustained high volume, I may get around 10 watts. Then if I want to put some ear plugs in and see how far I can push it, I may see up to 100 watts or so. But I'd never actually try and listen to anything at this sustained volume for very long as it reminds me of standing right next to big concert or club speakers.

    So whatever is going into tube amps or high watt quality SS amps, watts are only a part of the story. I'd say during sane listening levels with average full range speakers in average size rooms, 10wpc is more than enough for everyday listening situations.
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    Now if you're trying to turn an average size room into a dance club...you might need more than a 30 wpc tube amp...
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2010
    guys,,mhardy said it best

    go and do some listening

    about the best advice one could receive

    good luck and have fun
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    Yes, I'd say trying out different amps and listening to them is best. I wasn't trying to say anything about the quality of the sound, just that going by a watts spec may not be a good indicator of even potential volume differences except at extreme listening levels.
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited June 2010
    Go and listen for yourself . . . that's the best advice. Mhardy's post hits the nail on the head.

    Also know that you can tube roll to shape that special sound that you like or to synergize better with different speakers in the case of an amp or in the case of a tubed preamp with the other components attached to it.

    Tubes are not as expensive as Cathy would have you believe plus if you don't like the sound of certain tubes you can always flip them and get all or most of your money back.

    IMHO I'd rather be able to tweak my rig (which I do with every single component) than have a set it and forget it rig that I would tire of after some time. Think of it this way, with tubes you can upgrade a component without have to buy a new one to meet your listening needs.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,057
    edited June 2010
    Think of it this way, with tubes you can upgrade a component without having to buy a new one to meet your listening needs.
    Ed Zachary.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2010
    toobs
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2010
    Ok.. Did I miss something??

    I'm starting to respect the elegance of tube amps, and Ive been reading a gathering information on tube amps. Looking on all the various resale sights to see ALL thats out there. But I'm confused on the ratings of these amps.

    I'm reading claims of people using 20, 30, watt tube amps driving these huge speakers. And tube amps that are $3000.00 and they are only 8-watts

    WTH????

    Can someone tell me what the difference is? Are there HIGH powered tube amps??



    Ask RT1
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited June 2010
    I heard a pair of 8W mono block amps about two years ago that cost around $30K with their associated power supplies and power conditioners. On efficient horns they sounded like thousands of watts per channel, dead quiet other than the music and produced a sound you would easily mistake for a live performance, whether that be hard rock and roll or one guy singing along with a guitar. Not a single sound was coming directly from either speaker, it was just there all around you. The main thing to know about wattage and speakers are that they need to mate. The lower the efficiency of the speaker the more power you need. Another thing to keep in mind is the higher the speaker efficiency is, the bigger it will be. For example, several 15" drivers in huge boxes are much louder than a few small drivers in a small box. I know it sounds weird before you put some thought into it...

    Tubes rule!
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited June 2010

    Thats weird, my copy of that book has a black cover. :confused:
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,487
    edited June 2010
    Just like any other hobby there are no quick answers. Tubes are wonderful and many here including myself use a soild state amp and a tube pre-amp. It takes some time to learn about this aspect of the hobby so be patient and keep reading and if you find a good deal on something that looks promising then buy it and try it out.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2010
    madmax wrote: »
    Thats weird, my copy of that book has a black cover. :confused:

    Mine looks like the one in the ad,, I got luck and got it for 10 bucks on e-bay-- I don't think it had ever been opened,,pretty decent read,,lots good history,IMHO.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited June 2010
    cheddar wrote: »
    I have some SS amps rated at 400wpc into 4ohms and they have digital watt meters with a peak hold function. What's surprised me the most, even when hooked up to my LSi 15s, is how little power actually goes into them at average listening levels. I don't listen to either music or home theater at low volumes. I'd say I start at medium and only go up from there.

    But the meters don't go much past 5 watts in an average listening session. If I really want some sustained high volume, I may get around 10 watts. Then if I want to put some ear plugs in and see how far I can push it, I may see up to 100 watts or so. But I'd never actually try and listen to anything at this sustained volume for very long as it reminds me of standing right next to big concert or club speakers.

    So whatever is going into tube amps or high watt quality SS amps, watts are only a part of the story. I'd say during sane listening levels with average full range speakers in average size rooms, 10wpc is more than enough for everyday listening situations.

    This. It's the first watt or two that make everything sound good. The rest is just headroom.

    30-40 REAL watts is more than enough for most speakers.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited June 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Just like any other hobby there are no quick answers. Tubes are wonderful and many here including myself use a soild state amp and a tube pre-amp. It takes some time to learn about this aspect of the hobby so be patient and keep reading and if you find a good deal on something that looks promising then buy it and try it out.

    H9

    Always keeping in mind that you can flip it, if you don't like it, for what you paid for it or close to it.