Vintage vs Modern tube equipment - Dynaco vs Jolida

ViperZ · May 2010

Just wondering what the opinions on these are.

I currently have two rebuilt Dynaco ST-70 amps, which I was going to use as monos with my Maggies, so it would give me around 55 Watts per channel (used with Dynaco PAS-3 tube preamp).

One Dynaco is rebuilt to a point where the only old parts are transformers and base, the other is mostly original, but with all new connectors / wiring / capacitors and tubes.

I had no plans to upgrade my rig, but here I got the new to me Jolida JD801A 70+70 tube integrated. I need to get some new tubes for it, and it will be ready for some critical listening.

Of course, I'll spend hours listening to it with the Maggies to compare to Dynaco sound...

Does newer mean better, or is vintage stuff still as good?

I am worried about Jolida regarding a couple major things:
- it's integrated, so noise propagation may be an issue.
- it does not have a phono stage, and I do not have a stand-alone tube phono. Sticking my Cambridge 640A solid state phono stage in-between the TT and the tube amp sounds like a blasphemy.

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

george daniel · May 2010

Tough question,, for me personally,I perfer the David Manley vintage gear,,the Dynaco's seem to have a very strong following.I have a friend who has one that I think he'll keep forever.For new iron,,I really like the Manley Stingray and the Rogue Cronus.

HB27 · May 2010

The old Dynaco iron is of a higher quality than newer Jolida iron. Especially the old cloth lead wiring in the Dynacos. Not a thing wrong with the Jolida though they were "economized" in a lot of areas. They can sound great. "SYNERGY" "SYNERGY"
I'll always choose seperates instead of integrated but with tubes it's amazing how much quality sound you can get rolling tubes to your preferences.
As far as the Cambridge phono pre goes...I'll bet your turntable is SS??? Not an issue and not blasphemy at all. Your Cambridge is a very good Phono Pre without a doubt.
You've got a great base for two systems there. Congrats.
Harry

ViperZ · May 2010

HB27 wrote: »

As far as the Cambridge phono pre goes...I'll bet your turntable is SS??? Not an issue and not blasphemy at all. Your Cambridge is a very good Phono Pre without a doubt.
You've got a great base for two systems there. Congrats.
Harry

Harry, the TT only really has a motor in it, which is ran through transformer... So I don't think I have any active silicone in there (transistors/diodes/microcircuits).

I do not want to put any extra stages in-between the source and the amp. Adding the solid state preamp may kill that "tube" thing, because for TT really it's the first amplifier gain stage, which will determine how good your overall system will sound...

george daniel · May 2010

I rotate between a ss and tubed phono pre in my system,ie,, between the tt and tube pre.

organ · May 2010

Hey dude, I'm from Toronto too.

IMO, newer doesn't mean better. A lot of gear have come in gone in my rig but my ST-70 will never go!
I'm getting mine rebuilt very soon and looking forward to hearing it on my Maggies.

Have you tried running a single Dynaco for your Maggies?
Somebody please correct me if I"m wrong. I thought that when you bridge an amplifier, the speaker impedance seen by the amp is cut by half. This might not be a good thing on 4ohm speakers.

btw, is your amp design stock with the 7199 driver tubes and 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier?

HB27 · May 2010

ViperZ wrote: »

Harry, the TT only really has a motor in it, which is ran through transformer... So I don't think I have any active silicone in there (transistors/diodes/microcircuits).

I do not want to put any extra stages in-between the source and the amp. Adding the solid state preamp may kill that "tube" thing, because for TT really it's the first amplifier gain stage, which will determine how good your overall system will sound...

What TT are you running?
I'm running the old Thorens TD 125 as my main with SME 3009 II unmod w/Grace Ruby, and restoring/rebuilding a 124.
For my phono pre I'm running the PS Audio PSIII I had rebuilt close to a year ago at PS Audio. I've used some super nice and expensive phono pres in the last couple of years and the PSIII is a killer phono pre.

I'm a tube guy. Period. In the phono section of my system I've spent mucho bucks and like the PSIII the best of all the phono pres I've listened to. IT's a considerable amount of phono pres btw. No deterioration of sound what so ever.
I've also got McAlister's finest preamps with excellent phono sections in them.

I've also got a fine SS system I listen to as a "Test" system as I'm always changing out new gear I pick up or gear I repair I want to listen to for a while.
Tubes are inconvenient for the "Test" system in the rectifier delay stages.

A couple of months ago I bought a Mark Levinson 28 preamp with low gain phono stage option just for the phono section. I picked up the ML 29 amp to match up with it. I still haven't got the bugs workied out with cables and speakers yet as I just got all my Camac connectors and adapters (P.I.A.) and I'll start on them this holiday weekend.

I'm always wanting to hear more systems so I dabble in the audio world as a second income so I can get my ears on as many components as I can.

There's a lot of good sounding gear in both TUBE and SS. I am a tube guy.

Harry

hearingimpared · May 2010

ViperZ wrote: »

Harry, the TT only really has a motor in it, which is ran through transformer... So I don't think I have any active silicone in there (transistors/diodes/microcircuits).

I do not want to put any extra stages in-between the source and the amp. Adding the solid state preamp may kill that "tube" thing, because for TT really it's the first amplifier gain stage, which will determine how good your overall system will sound...

Not true. I use a Spectral DMC 10 G preamp as my phono stage and it is all SS. I then have it connected to my Tri-Vista hybrid integrated, the preamp state is tube and it sounds spectacular. If your solid state phono pre is of good quality which I believe yours is, you are good to go.

ViperZ · May 2010

organ wrote: »

Hey dude, I'm from Toronto too.

IMO, newer doesn't mean better. A lot of gear have come in gone in my rig but my ST-70 will never go!
I'm getting mine rebuilt very soon and looking forward to hearing it on my Maggies.

Have you tried running a single Dynaco for your Maggies?
Somebody please correct me if I"m wrong. I thought that when you bridge an amplifier, the speaker impedance seen by the amp is cut by half. This might not be a good thing on 4ohm speakers.

btw, is your amp design stock with the 7199 driver tubes and 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier?

Hey, I am currently running Maggies on a single ST-70 - 2nd one went to Audio Oasis - I wanted George to check something for me on it.

ST-70 can handle my Maggies in its "mono" config (they are 6 Ohm speakers), but again, I need my 2nd ST-70 back

. Even with a single amp they sound fantastic.

I have not modded the tubes on the board, so yes, I still use 5AR4 rectifier and 7199 Sovteks on both amps. 7199 are either very expensive or impossible to find, but they sound very good. I was fortunate to get an extra pair of original Dynaco 7199s with my first ST-70s, so I am holding on to them as a back-up.

Btw, like I said before, you cannot run ST-70 in a true-mono. I double-checked, and all it does when the switch is flipped is invert a 2nd channel signal. So you have to use the jumpers on the outputs. Also, if you have 8-ohm speakers, you'd be hooking them up to 16-ohm taps; for 4-ohm speakers, you'd be hooking them up to 8-ohm taps for such config.

Where in Toronto are you?

ViperZ · May 2010

HB27 wrote: »

What TT are you running?

Harry

Harry, I am not even close to your setup in my 2-ch. My 2-channel rig consists mainly of things that I have rebuilt/upgraded. Dual 1228 TT with Shure M97xE. For phono/pre I have Carver C-1 (as a reference), Cambridge Audio 640P, Dynaco PAS-3 (currently using, tube pre with phono).

ViperZ · May 2010

hearingimpared wrote: »

Not true. I use a Spectral DMC 10 G preamp as my phono stage and it is all SS. I then have it connected to my Tri-Vista hybrid integrated, the preamp state is tube and it sounds spectacular. If your solid state phono pre is of good quality which I believe yours is, you are good to go.

I guess, that's what I tried to say... but my main point is that the very first gain stage (phono amp) will affect the way your rig sounds the most. Cambridge phono definitely sounds better than Carver C-1 phono to me, but when I hook up Dynaco tube phono - oh man, the sound becomes sooo smoooth, the sound stage gets deeper, voices get more real. It's just the tube effect to me, those little 12AX7 tubes make the system sing.

tonyb · May 2010

Personally I never cared for the older Dynaco stuff. Never heard any jolida stuff either. As far as vintage tubes goes,snag some Sonic Frontiers gear,it will blow your mind what 200 watts of tube power can do.

hearingimpared · May 2010

ViperZ wrote: »

I guess, that's what I tried to say... but my main point is that the very first gain stage (phono amp) will affect the way your rig sounds the most. Cambridge phono definitely sounds better than Carver C-1 phono to me, but when I hook up Dynaco tube phono - oh man, the sound becomes sooo smoooth, the sound stage gets deeper, voices get more real. It's just the tube effect to me, those little 12AX7 tubes make the system sing.

Well in my case, the Spectral was made when vinyl was king so it performs fantastically as the first gain stage. It has every option one could want for MM & MC cartridges. I guess it just synergizes well with my Tri-Vista.

george daniel · May 2010

Dug this out of the closet today,, my first pre amp--cleaned it up--still works,,sounds pretty good too.

organ · May 2010

Viper,

Aaah, thanks for clearing up the impedance issue. I was just on ebay looking at 7199's. There are some BIN's at less than $50 a pair. The Sylvania sound fantastic. If your Dynaco labeled 7199 have black plates, they're Mullards, if grey, most likely Sylvania or GE. You should give them a listen now that you're using only one ST-70 while the other is out for service.
If you can find a Mullard GZ34, you'll be in for a big surprise. I did not expect that big of a difference compared to the Sovtek. I wish I had some more, mine just ran out of life.

It's great to hear that you're getting great results with the Dyna/Magnepan combo. I can't wait to get mine rebuilt so I can hear it on my MG-12's.

Audio Oasis is kick ****. I go there all the time, in fact, I'm going there next week to pick up my cdp I had them mod. George and Michael have been so helpful to me in my audio journey. I just love going there because you don't know what used equipment they're going to have. Lately it seems like he's getting new stuff almost everyday lol.

I'm in Etobicoke. South of Kipling and Eglinton.

ViperZ · May 2010

organ wrote: »

I'm in Etobicoke. South of Kipling and Eglinton.

What you are saying is that you live 5 minutes away from me...

ViperZ · May 2010

Update on Jolida... Got the schematic and opened the damn thing to check it out.
THE cheapest design you'll ever find. There are so many design problems in this amp, which require significant upgrades - don't even get me started. Personally, I am disgusted that the company can build the cheap-a$$ amp and sell it for $1550 USD.
They claim to have a noise floor of -70dB, but it's a load of stuff. The way that thing is designed... well, lets say the power supplies in arc welders have better filtering than this amp. Of course, the damn thing is humming slightly...
On a positive note, it's a very dynamic amp compared to my ST-70s - but that's obvious, since I am comparing KT88 tubes to EL34.
Dynaco amps have every single thing ("upgrade) that this amp does not have. Basically, if you want a completely bone-stock amp without any upgrades, poor functionality and good looks - then Jolida is for you. I'll stick with my rebuilt Dynacos

.

ViperZ · May 2010

george daniel wrote: »

Dug this out of the closet today,, my first pre amp--cleaned it up--still works,,sounds pretty good too.

George, that Citation is gorgeous. Unfortunately, I had a run-in with H/K Canada, which has a non-existent customer support (compared to H/K USA, which was always great when I needed help). So I got rid of all my Citation gear a couple of years ago.

hearingimpared · May 2010

george daniel wrote: »

Dug this out of the closet today,, my first pre amp--cleaned it up--still works,,sounds pretty good too.

Very pretty George.

ViperZ · June 2010

For those who are interested, another update on Jolida and Dynaco...

My father (who has been designing electronics for over 30 years) saw this piece on the test bench and really liked the way it looked from outside :cool:. So, he is currently updating / partially re-designing this amp in his spare time. He did tons of re-wiring, added a choke and he is working on the new capacitor/resistor values for the signal path and the beefed up power supply. I'll replace the caps/resistors with high quality parts too (the original parts are el-cheapo ones).

At this point, after he re-wired it, added a choke and calibrated the amp with the new set of tubes, the amp output is dead quiet (originally it was slightly buzzing on both channels, and many 802a owners report the same thing). The dynamics of the amp became much more apparent, it has an amazing punchy sound now. The bass extension is ridiculously good too.

I am not sure how far we want to take it in terms of $$$, but there are many more things, which can be fixed/added to the amp... The two most important upgrades would be a tube phono stage and a proper input switching...

...In the meantime I have been playing with my 2nd Dynaco ST-70... Re-wired the damn thing completely, replaced the board with brand new one, new tubes, blah blah... The damn amp (fully warmed and calibrated to 1.56V on each channel) is still very slightly humming on one channel (can be heard from about 1 foot). I am really upset, because my main ST-70 is dead quiet. So it looks like the power transformer would have to be replaced. If I am to replace that transformer, the only original things in the amp will be the base and the output transformers

.
Has anybody tried the transformers from Triode Electronics? Thanks!

Vintage vs Modern tube equipment - Dynaco vs Jolida

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