3490 w/ SDA-1Cs?

dane_peterson
dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
edited June 2010 in Electronics
Anyone tried this combination? I know this Harman Kardon is pretty well-received, but am I pushing it to drive 1Cs?

Just FYI, I picked up my first pair of them last night! Won't be throwing hundreds of $ worth of mods into them yet, but perhaps in the next couple months.
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  • Ron Temple
    Ron Temple Posts: 3,212
    edited June 2010
    I've driven mine with just the HK245 at moderate volumes. Also, with a Denon AVR, an Audiosource 80w 2channel amp, a Marantz integrated with 25w of pure class A, an Audiosource 150w 2 channel amp, as well as, Carver, Adcom, Luxman and Carver again. The speakers responded better with some of the amps than others and like the power, but I'd think your 3490 will do a decent job and can act as a pre when you're ready to try something else. I'm still using the HK245 as a pre...it gets out of the way for analog performance.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,370
    edited June 2010
    I've used the combo with good results. When I sold it and went to a separate Denon pre and power amp I did notice better performance all around.

    I think you will like it but it won't be long before you feel the urge to upgrade.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,487
    edited June 2010
    1C's need a good amp to sound their best. The better the amplification, the better they respond (that doesn't mean wpc either, I run 30 wpc of SS, best freaking amp I've heard and I have yet to find the limits of the amp!). Will it work? Sure, will you be close to what the 1C's are capable of, no, not really.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    Thanks for the input, guys. I know it's not optimal... I just didn't want to break the amp's back right from the beginning. Sounds like I'll be okay.

    Kinda bums me out that I dropped $150 on Xovers for my Monitor 7s and now I have these... I can't decide which to listen to! Receiver will be here later in the week, and I'll want to get my music on.
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited June 2010
    Got some pics of the new 1c's?
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    I'll have to get some up tomorrow. I took a couple with my iPhone, but they didn't turn out so well.

    I've refinished the tops to try and get rid of the water ring (unsuccessful) But now they're at least as smooth as butter! Windexed the drivers. They're sitting in my garage until the amp gets here. :)
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited June 2010
    I know what I'm going to propose is anathema, but...that HK has two pre-outs--if you have a power amp lying around and want to PUSH them more...seems a pretty easy idea for 'now'! Although, as you know, the HK isn't terrible at 150 watts x 2 into 4 ohms?

    Of course separates are 'better'. But patience is not an awful thing either..and then there's the question of 'money'.

    Have fun...that's the most important thing.

    Hang around these guys long enough and you're wife will leave you, you'll lose your house, you'll have no savings to retire on but you'll have some GREAT equipment and high end I/Cs! lol

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    I finally got these connected tonight, and I find myself going back to the Mon 7's. I've tried different material, adjusting toe and placement, and I just prefer listening to the Monitors!
    It kinda bums me out considering how much I was looking forward to hearing one of the most raved about Polks... am I missing something? The interconnect is attached, all drivers are producing sound... I feel like I've done something wrong! lol I can't imagine the HK is THAT bad.

    In any case, here are some pics.
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited June 2010
    Placement looks all wrong. Did you try them in your livingroom? Depending on your bed height you might be sitting up too high and try pulling them out from the wall.
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    Livingroom isn't an option... too open, no good spot for a stereo, and I frankly wouldn't sit in there to listen to music anyway. 14ft ceilings that joins the kitchen and dining room, wood floors... horrible listening environment.

    They're about 7 ft apart, toed in about 5*, 12" off the back wall... seems relatively optimal from what I've read. But I did experiment a little...
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited June 2010
    No toe in needed...
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    K. I started them straight forward, and then adjusted toe in hopes of improvement. My guess is there are several factors here... space, power, source, and SL2000s. :P
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  • Des Moines
    Des Moines Posts: 115
    edited June 2010
    5-6 inches off the back wall was the sweet spot for me and jacking them up off the floor 2.5-3 inches also made a big difference.
    HT in Progress
    Receiver - Harmon Kardon AVR520 5.1
    Fronts - Polk SDA 1C
    Center - Polk CS350
    Monitor - Sharp Aquos LCD
    NMT - Mede8er500x
    Cables - Signal Ultra
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited June 2010
    That looks like less than an optimal set up. The general rules are at least 4 feet apart....4-8 feet...more space is optimal in the appropriate room. At least a half foot from the back wall. at least 3 feet away from any wall on the outside of the speaker. Speakers must have NO TOE in and be perfectly parallel to each other. There MUST BE NOTHING IN FRONT OF THE SPEAKERS TO EITHER SIDE THE BREAKS THE PERFECT PLANE BETWEEN THEM. In other words the 1Cs are protruding the MOST of anything on that wall.

    I'm also not quite sure about having a BED less than a few feet from the bass radiator? Maybe someone else can address that. That does not seem right to me.

    Finally remember. SDAs have a tight 'sweet spot', looking at your room I can't imagine where I would sit to get the full SDA effect. Usually that is dead center between the two speakers forming an equilateral triangle with them?

    Don't know if this helps. I too don't think its your amp. I've run my 2Bs on a 130 watt Kenwood (4 ohm capable) receiver and while not optimal you could still hear the SDA effect and the speakers could pound the room!

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    I hadn't tried them that close to the wall yet (5-6")... but the baby's asleep on the other side of the wall. Have them repositioned and will try again tomorrow morning.

    This is obviously less than an optimal listening room all things considered. But it's all I have right now besides an unfinished basement that I don't care to spend my free time in. I can't wait to move to a single-family house... AHH!

    I measured, and they're exactly 6' apart right now. With them being a little closer to the back wall, the dresser protrudes further than the speakers (probably not gonna work well). The bed probably destroys this environment too, but it's at least 3 feet away from either speaker.

    So many rules with SDA. Probably to the point where it's not a good speaker choice for me right now.
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,370
    edited June 2010
    Monitor 7's may sound better in that room. That is OK...

    FYI...My SDA-2B's are 2.25" off the rear wall and produce huge bass to the point where I feel the need for no sub. I know it sounds crazy but the room helps them out.

    So many people totally forget that the room is a huge factor in sound reproduction.
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, I'm okay with it. After fiddling around tonight, I still trust that the 1C is an incredible speaker. Someday I hope to give them another run for their money... but for now, I'm going to enjoy my 7s.
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    It's funny you mentioned rules for the SDA. I've Martin Logan Spires set up in my living room right now. Talk about rules! 5 foot off the front wall, 2.5 of the sides, speaker rake adjusted to 1 degree of vertical and toe to one third of panel at sweet spot with a flashlight strapped to head! Those are just the big ones too.

    I'll be picking up some SDA's this afternoon. Will be my first try with them and I'm looking forward to learning a whole new set of rules :D

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • Ron Temple
    Ron Temple Posts: 3,212
    edited June 2010
    You need space between your speakers and the LP. 3' isn't enough. As stated an equilateral triangle will be fine, but I prefer more. The speakers are just too much for that room with a bed in the middle.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    I definitely appreciate everyone's input. It's funny... I could have asked placement questions BEFORE purchasing the speakers, but where's the fun in that? I definitely prefer the "living and learning" method.

    These speakers sat in my garage for a week before I finally got the balls to ask my wife to help carry them upstairs. Needless to say, she called it "quits" by the entry way. I lugged these beasts up two half-flights of stairs on my own. Glad I'm young enough to still be able to do that!

    I'm sitting and listening to them as we speak. I scooted about 3 feet forward on the bed and closed the door. They're better. Still not as good as they should be. Let this be a lesson to those entertaining a similar notion.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 18,133
    edited June 2010
    Are they spiked??
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 18,133
    edited June 2010
    Dane, I still think these should sound good, maybe not the best in that room but still good.
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    They are not spiked. It's not that they sound bad... just not substantially better than the 7's like I expected. Midrange/bass is a touch crisper than the Mons, but not as present as I imagined for speakers this size. Imaging feels a little off-center, which is likely due to the fact that they're not centered in the room.
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,370
    edited June 2010
    Dane, just to make sure they are wired properly, if I were you I would take a few minutes to open them up. Make sure all drivers are the correct model #'s and wired properly. One wired out of phase could be killing your sound. It happened to me before on a pair of SDA's and made them unimpressive.
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    Okay, all original MW6511s. Black and Blue wires hot, White and Green wires negative. Foam is rolled up and tucked towards top, edging out to bottom mid... everything seems in line.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 18,133
    edited June 2010
    Conradicles wrote: »
    Dane, just to make sure they are wired properly, if I were you I would take a few minutes to open them up. Make sure all drivers are the correct model #'s and wired properly. One wired out of phase could be killing your sound. It happened to me before on a pair of SDA's and made them unimpressive.


    Agreed!!! My room is off center and my SDA's have great center imaging. My room is even open to the dining room even valted ceilings.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,487
    edited June 2010
    dane_peterson wrote: »
    They are not spiked. It's not that they sound bad... just not substantially better than the 7's like I expected. Midrange/bass is a touch crisper than the Mons, but not as present as I imagined for speakers this size. Imaging feels a little off-center, which is likely due to the fact that they're not centered in the room.

    Yeah, somethings not right and it very well could be the gear you're running them with too. My 1C's have few peers even more expensive non-Polk's have a hard time competing. I have pretty heavily modded 5B's and while the 7's are a little nicer in the bottom end the 5's would hold their own against the 7's and my 5B's don't hold a candle to the 1C's, not evne a contest.


    As I've moved up the gear chain with the 1C's I have been rewarded almost 2 fold for each upgrade. I think back to my days of running the Adcom/Nak combo w/Signal cables on everything and listen to what I have now, and the difference in sound is simply unbelievable and the only constant has been the 1C's the dac, and my listening position.

    Never underestimate what a difference quality gear can make. I have a friend, who is also a Polkie, and he just moved from and AVR as a preamp to a dedicated preamp and the sound difference he said is simply amazing with his LSi's. He was thinking about selling the LSi's because he wasn't happy with the sound. Now he's as happy as a pig in mud.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    I believe it! Like I stated earlier, I'm sure the HK could be a factor here too... Thanks Brock. There are so many variables in my rig right now, that I'd rather not even deal with it. I really ought to have a dedicated listening room for these anyway.

    I've narrowed things down the best I can. The above conclusions are all I can come up with. At full disclosure, I'm thinking I'd like to have another Polkie take them and give 'em a shot. I bought these for $350 on eBay + $50 to my brother for use of his truck/gas money. Perhaps I can break even...?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,487
    edited June 2010
    Hey Dane, didn't mention it to make you feel bad about the rig you're assembling. I mentioned more to encourage you to keep the 1C's so perhaps at a later date you can better utilize them. In the end you may find they don't work best in the situation you are using them in. It happens; it's better to keep the 7's if they really sound almost as good as the 1C's in that particular rig. Just really give it a go (like u have) to see if they (1C's) will work.

    Good luck

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • dane_peterson
    dane_peterson Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2010
    It's all good, I appreciate the encouragement. I'm not the one to collect gear though... I "rotate" it. In fact, I rarely purchase things unless I know I can either profit from them or break even... (it's the salesperson in me)

    Going into it, I had NO intention of getting rid of either pair of speakers. The fun funds have basically dried up, so I would have to sell something anyway... it's become a little easier decision than I anticipated. Someday when the conditions are better, I'll hope to find another pair of SDAs. But for now I'll rest better knowing I've tried it and found something I really like.
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