Tube Differences
zingo
Posts: 11,258
I specifically if want to know if anyone has experience with the differences between 6V6 and EL84 vacuum tubes? I am also willing to discuss any other differences in tube sounds (or if anyone else wants too).
Post edited by zingo on
Comments
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Hey Jake,
I've run both for years. I just traded off a super sounding Stromberg Carlson 6V6 amp to a Polk member in close proximity to me. It's a great sounding amp.
I also have a small Baldwin EL84 organ amp converted to stereo use. Both sound fantastic. I prefer the Stromberg Carlson over the Baldwin in this case. It's just the differences in output chokes in this case
BOTH have heavy iron, point to point wiring and high quality build.
Both have that great vintage tube sound.
There's a lot of each tubes available and you can fine tune either to your preference.
On another thought...I've never had a desire to keep any EL84 or 6V6 amp other than an old Heathkit AA-111 (EL84) I recapped. I gave it to a good friend a couple of years ago to run his Heresy II on. He won't part with it for anything. -
Are you asking to compare the sounds of amps using 6V6 vs. EL84? The 6V6 is an old tube design; the EL84 much more modern (believe it or not; it's all relative!). The former is widely respected for use in MI amps (as, I guess, is the latter), but both are pretty hifi capable. The 6V6 is a very "American" tube; the EL84 (6BQ5) more "European" (though there were US-made versions, not just European rebrands). PP EL84 is good for about 12-14 watts; pp 6V6, about 10 watts. Maggotbox (oops, I mean Magnavox) built PP console amps using both output tubes - I've done a fair amount of time with both and would consider them sonically quite comparable. NOS or good used 6V6 tubes are readily available for reasonable prices; prices for good NOS EL84s are pretty steep these days. The NOS Russian 6p14p-ev (IIRC, too lazy to double check), which is essentially a 7189, is a very nice sounding and rugged tube that's readily available for reasonable $.
SE 6V6 is also a very real possibility, although I have no ears-on experience. SE EL84 amps (whether pseudo-triode or pentode) can be very, very good (e.g., the lowly EICO AF-4). Here's a neat SE 6V6 design: http://boozhoundlabs.com/6v6hifi/ (see also http://boozhoundlabs.com/howto/ )
I like both; but the EL84 is a sweet spot for me -- I've never heard a PP or SE EL84 amp that I didn't like... and my SE 2A3 amps were ultimately replaced by a PP EL84 amp (EICO HF-81) in the real hifi in the living room.
In the interest of disclosure... right this second there is a cute little pair of 6V6 PP mono integrated amps running in the LR. They're just passing through, but they are perfectly respectable.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101105&highlight=Shack
HTH, as they say... if not, sorry I didn't address the right question! :-P -
oh, also probably worth mentioning... the 6V6, despite being an old tube design (the original, metal 6V6 is in the 1947 RCA "RC-15" tube data manual) is a beam power tube; the EL84/6BQ5 is an "ordinary" pentode (albeit one that was designed for hifi).
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6V6
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6BQ5
EDIT: ... and, just in case youse guys need tube data and don't know of it, pretty much anything you might want is available in the public domain for d/l at Pete Millett's site: http://www.tubebooks.org/
EDIT^2: I mentioned the Russian "6p14p-ev" in the previous post. I double-checked and, yes, that is the correct designation; more accurately, in Cyrillic, it's 6П14ПEВ. It's essentially a 7189, which itself was essentially a souped-up EL84. Some amplifiers run their outputs hard enough that a normal EL84 will quickly self-immolate; the 6П14ПEВ is a good replacement tube for such amps (e.g., some of the Radio Shack, Scott, and Fisher integrated amps of the early 1960s). The 7189 was good for up to about 18 watts in PP.
http://www.tubes.ru/techinfo/HiFiAudio/6p14pev.html -
Very helpful gents! I feel like I see more hifi amps with EL84s than 6V6s, but that may not be true...
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Very helpful gents! I feel like I see more hifi amps with EL84s than 6V6s, but that may not be true...
No, I think you're right; it's probably true. The idea of "old" vs. "new" technology was as pervasive in 1959 as it is now! :-) The 6V6 was passe by then. Interestingly, fairly late in the vacuum tube era, several flavors of "super 6V6" came along (e.g., the 7408, aka 6V6GTA). harman/kardon used the 7408 in some of the very last vacuum tube equipment they made.
The 6V6 probably saw more use in relatively "budget" hifi gear, as well as portable phonographs and tape recorders (VM, "The Voice of Music" company, used 6V6 amps in many of their products, e.g.). -
Very helpful gents! I feel like I see more hifi amps with EL84s than 6V6s, but that may not be true...
I have a 6V6 tube integrated and it sounds fantastic. Creamy, smooth, detailed and it packs a nice punch. It's about the whole package, if I change the driver tubes I get a slightly different sound. I run early 50's RCA gray glass black plate 6V6's which I feel are about the best, but it depends on your rig and synergy. I run RCA red base 5691 (6SL7) for driver tubes. This combo sounds fantastic with my 5B's.
FWIW
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
I have a 6V6 tube integrated and it sounds fantastic.
Just out of curiosity (and perhaps I should know, but I don't): Which amp is that? -
Chinese variety of very high quality with Auricaps and Allen Brady resistors, Nichicon PS caps all std. It takes a lot to impress me build wise and these are well put together and well thought out. The one in the review is an earlier model. The later models like mine (2006 ver.) have piano black sides.
Dared VP-16
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dared2/vp16.html
http://daredtubeaudio.bravehost.com/VP-16.htm
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
That's interesting since it is recent/new production. So much for my "lost in antiquity" theory on why we might see less 6V6 hifi amps! :-P
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mhardy6647 wrote: »That's interesting since it is recent/new production. So much for my "lost in antiquity" theory on why we might see less 6V6 hifi amps! :-P
Well, the Chinese in particular are known for using less popular tubes in their designs. The 6V6 has been used in guitar amps for a very long time. Doesn;t mean they are poor designs. I appreciate that because that can keep the cost down on the ultra popular tube types that are hunted to extinction. Although the gray glass RCA 6V6's are being hunted and command a pretty high price. I want to try a quad of Bendix 5992's but those typically run $400-500 for a used quad. I'm not paying that for a secondary system.
I'll admit I haven't put my ears on a lot of tube gear old or new, but I know what sounds good and correct and so far the Dared with 6V6's and RCA red base 5691's blows me away.
To the OP, you should read the review as the reviewer give some insight to EL84 vs 6V6 sound and tube type."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
heh, quite a few of those smoky-looking RCA 6V6s in a box in the basement (not NOS, though; all pre-loved).
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Pretty sure youse guyses have seen what's in my LR at the moment. On the off-chance you haven't...
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mhardy6647 wrote: »heh, quite a few of those smoky-looking RCA 6V6s in a box in the basement (not NOS, though; all pre-loved).
I've been lucky and I have (2) extra quads all pre-loved. I bought one set of quads closely matched and then (2) pairs from different sellers closely matched to each other (different tube testers but close readings) and I paid a lot less than the going rate, but I scoured ebay for months waiting for the right deals.:p
Each tube can be biased manually so exact matching isn't necessary but I tried to purchase them all as close as possible, within about 15% of each other.
The amp came with JJ/Tesla 6V6GT's and they just didn't sound anywhere near as sweet as the RCA's. The RCA's have a lot more authority too. It also came with New production Russian 6SL7GT's and the RCA red base 5691's sound 1000 times better.
. Never heard the Chinese tubes it was shipped w/ from the factory and I really don't want to.
H9
P.s. I also have a NOS pair of 1940's Tung Sol 6SU7GTY's and those sound phenomenal as well. Simply superb!!!"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
Although they are labeled Realistic,,are they Eico's?JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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george daniel wrote: »Although they are labeled Realistic,,are they Eico's?
Negative. They are purported to be Grommes OEM. They are either that or Japanese knock-offs.
Early on, R/S sold OEM Grommes branded "Realist" (later "Realistic", after R/S received a cease and desist letter on behalf of (or were sued by) the holder of the "Realist" TM (most likely the David White Company, makers of the Stereo Realist 35 mm stereo camera). By the early 1960s, these same amps (or very close relatives) were sold as Realistic AF-12 and are labeled as "imported" in at least some R/S catalogs.
AFAIK, EICO never made an amp using 6V6 family for outputs (at least, I cannot think of any...).
http://www.radioshackcorporation.com/history.html
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereo_Realist
http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56139&highlight=&sid=e74516a043795c391a535db40484c0f6
(see post by Drew) -
A sincere "thank you" for the education,,6v6,,hmmm, thanks.:)JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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speaking of 6V6 vs. EL84... thread started just today on the topic (as applied to Maggotbox amps) at AK. Strictly "as-is" and FYI only, no warranty express or implied :-)
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=302961
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Interesting little read over that at AK. Is that your amp pictured?
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Interesting little read over that at AK. Is that your amp pictured?
Nope, it's one I re-hab'bed for a friend. Nice amp (Maggotbox PP 6V6 console power amp). I have its EL84 cousin, which I found at our town dump (in situ in its console). -
Another tube question:
I am getting a new amp in that uses a pair of 6Ж4 stock, which are also 6AC7 and 6J4 I believe? These are all metal body tubes which I have no experience with. Are there any pros and cons to metal tubes besides durability?
I've also found some glass body 6J4P (also 6AC7GT?) which would appear to be replacements for the stock metal tubes. I definetly like the look of glass tubes better, but would they have any advantage. (Obviously listening to the tubes is the best decider...)
I know all of these are more rare tubes than we usually discuss here, but any help would be appreciated.
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The worst thing about metal tubes, if you ask me, is the fact that you cannot see the filaments glow. I don't mean this as an esthetic critique :-) I have a Heathkit A7 integrated amp which was initially equipped with 12A6 outputs. One of the two was bad when I got the amp; the tube (as it turned out) was stone-cold when the amp was turned on and "warmed up"; couldn't tell by looking at it (had to test it). Conversely, I have on a couple of occasions surprised myself rather unpleasantly by trying to pull out a hot (but benign-looking) metal tube! :-(
One other little wrinkle; occasionally there will be high voltage on the metal envelope of a tube (if an amp's designer happened to use a certain pin on the socket as a tie-point for other wiring, as is sometimes the case).
Bear in mind that the original 6L6 version was a metal tube.... -
Good thoughts. I never considered the heat or the fact that you are using a metal shell in a high voltage circuit. They do have kind of a cool industrial look to them, but we'll see what I end up doing.
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I just bought a pair of these tubes on ebay: 1981 NOS Shuguang 6J4P (6AC7GT). I'll be interested to swap them in for the metal, stock 6Ж4 tubes. I hope they sound better, but at least they will look better. (I also hope they are the right match...
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