I'm not impressed! What am I missing???????
Pycroft
Posts: 1,961
Hi all...
I tried my hand at vinyl today. I was not overly impressed. Granted - I was using a turntable and preamp I was unfamiliar with. Can someone please explain WHY vinyl is so highly regarded, and the differences to CD's?
I listened to three albums so far - Journey (I was able to compare it to a CD I had, I preferred the CD), Def Leopard, and Aretha Franklin.
Here are a few questions, on top of the general one above -
1) What would make the sound less than appealing? Do I have to clean the album before playing? Is using an entry level table going to make that much of a differnce? (FYI, I'm not using a high quality CD Player either).
2) What makes a bigger difference? A higher quality table? A preamp/amp? IC's? (I have super crappy ones).
3) I know with CD's, even great groups are affected by bad recordings. Is it possible I'm not listening to good recordings that would wow me? Does a certain genre of music (Rock, classical, jazz, etc.) benefit more from vinyl?
Thanks,
James
I tried my hand at vinyl today. I was not overly impressed. Granted - I was using a turntable and preamp I was unfamiliar with. Can someone please explain WHY vinyl is so highly regarded, and the differences to CD's?
I listened to three albums so far - Journey (I was able to compare it to a CD I had, I preferred the CD), Def Leopard, and Aretha Franklin.
Here are a few questions, on top of the general one above -
1) What would make the sound less than appealing? Do I have to clean the album before playing? Is using an entry level table going to make that much of a differnce? (FYI, I'm not using a high quality CD Player either).
2) What makes a bigger difference? A higher quality table? A preamp/amp? IC's? (I have super crappy ones).
3) I know with CD's, even great groups are affected by bad recordings. Is it possible I'm not listening to good recordings that would wow me? Does a certain genre of music (Rock, classical, jazz, etc.) benefit more from vinyl?
Thanks,
James
2 Channel/HT:
Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
Harman Kardon HK354
Sony SACD Player
Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
Harman Kardon HK354
Sony SACD Player
Post edited by Pycroft on
Comments
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What table, phono pre, pre, etc...?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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just from my personal experience my phono pre made a large difference in terms of sound quality.
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Technics SL-DD22 table, Onkyo Integra P-304 preamp with phono input, Carver TCM-35x amp, Sony SS-M7a speakers. I don't think the issue is the preamp because I believe the Onkyo Integra has a well regarded phono section. Nothing sounded bad, I guess I just didn't hear a difference at all from CD's, other than the occasional crackle. Maybe I don't know what to listen for?

James2 Channel/HT:
Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
Harman Kardon HK354
Sony SACD Player -
FWIW, my experience with most Journey albums is that they sound horrible (although I tend to like the band's greatest hits).
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Vinyl costs money, and lots of it. However, some get lucky throwing together a preamp/cartridge/table and end up with enough synergy to enjoy it cheaply. Nothing is guaranteed when it comes to analog and even those who know what they are talking about can end up with a crappy sounding rig costing several thousand dollars if the parts don't happen to synergize.Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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With vinyl...everything matters. Clean LPs, A good pre-amp, a quality table with a good stylus and cartridge are a must. I agree with madmax that it doesn't have to be expensive. Good sound can be had if you look for good quality, reasonably priced gear. Clean LPs and some way to reduce static are an important part of the equation. Will it be the ultimate? No. But it can get you to the point where you can appreciate the attributes of vinyl….which can be considerable…even with a modest TT setup."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
I can't add anything to what has already been stated but James you don't live that far from me and have a formal invitation to come to my house and listen to my vinyl rig anytime. You'll hear the difference then.
Joe -
Sometimes it takes a few tries, but once you hear what vinyl is capable of, then you are hooked.
I originally got into vinyl because I was intrigued at the prospect of picking up albums on the cheap. For the most part, that is what the bulk of my collection is, thrift stores, bulk lot buys, etc.
But through that process, I started to hear more and more really good sounding music. After a few upgrades, lots of tweaking, lots of cleaning, I started to hear what was clearly better than the CD equivalents. Especially noticeable on older music that was never really mastered that well for CD.
Vinyl is not for everybody. You really have to be dedicated to the process and enjoy the ritual. I grew up with vinyl, moved away from it for many years, but I was glad to get back into it. -
Sometimes it takes a few tries, but once you hear what vinyl is capable of, then you are hooked.
I originally got into vinyl because I was intrigued at the prospect of picking up albums on the cheap. For the most part, that is what the bulk of my collection is, thrift stores, bulk lot buys, etc.
But through that process, I started to hear more and more really good sounding music. After a few upgrades, lots of tweaking, lots of cleaning, I started to hear what was clearly better than the CD equivalents. Especially noticeable on older music that was never really mastered that well for CD.
Vinyl is not for everybody. You really have to be dedicated to the process and enjoy the ritual. I grew up with vinyl, moved away from it for many years, but I was glad to get back into it.
Funny you should mention that Bill. When CDs first came out I bought dozens of them along with a pretty good player at the time, an NAD.
I just was never taken in with the digital sound so I never left the vinyl side of the hobby and because of that, I was able to put together a damned good vinyl rig over the years along with getting a few thousand LPs and audiophile pressings.
I've now built up a pretty darned good digital rig but vinyl is always my first choice for listening. Unless of course I'm too lazy or beat to go through the process then I just throw on a CD and because it is such a good player I can still get the enjoyment of listening to it. -
i have a feeling your needle may be to worn or your tone arm isn't set up correctly. in which case. fix both and try again.
vinyl isn't for wussies
not saying you are a wuss, just that it takes a good time investment to get vinyl to really sing. after three years, i'm still trying to get my meager old table to sound decent. but when it does, you'll know it.
also, not sure how old you are James, but if this is your first venture into vinyl and you grew up on CD's, then it will of course not sound as good till the synergy all comes together.
good luck..PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
Hi all...
I tried my hand at vinyl today. I was not overly impressed. Granted - I was using a turntable and preamp I was unfamiliar with. Can someone please explain WHY vinyl is so highly regarded, and the differences to CD's?
I listened to three albums so far - Journey (I was able to compare it to a CD I had, I preferred the CD), Def Leopard, and Aretha Franklin.
I'll take a stab at this part. A friend of a friend came over and listened to my rig awhile back. I was playing a Chili Peppers LP for him. What he said was that the sound had more depth and sounded more realistic as far as where he heard the players, as well as sounding more alive than the CD. That was when I had my old Parasound pre, and the sound is much improved with the new pre listed in my signature.
That description more or less sums it up for me. However, the way vinyl sounds is not for everyone. Some people do prefer the sound of CDs, and there's nothing wrong with them. I have several CDs where I prefer the CD version to the vinyl version. But usually, I like the vinyl better. This is true across rock, jazz, classical, etc.
As far as what you listened to, only Aretha would probably be found regularly on my table. If you tell us which Journey and DL albums though, I have a lot of their catalogs, so maybe I could tell you if they're just badly mastered albums. But basically, I've not heard Journey sound good on vinyl, and nothing after DL's first 3 albums were any good to my ear.
If you want to hear a really well recorded album, get a clean copy of Sinatra at the Sands, or Steely Dan Aja or Gaucho, or SRV Couldn't Stand the Weather. Those are some examples of very well recorded albums that sound excellent on vinyl. Or tell us what your favorite type of music and/or bands are, and maybe we can make some recommendations for albums that really show off the good qualities of vinyl.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: dsachs consulting
Digital: Marantz SACD 30n
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Premier 350
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Well Pycroft, you should jump on HI's offer and go audition his set-up. Maybe HI can give you some pointers on how to improve the rig you presently have.Technics SL-DD22 table, Onkyo Integra P-304 preamp with phono input,
However, if you find vinyl is not your cup of tea, then and only then I might be interested to take away the above gear if priced right.
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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I've heard HI's set up (though it is improved by now I am sure)
his Vinyl rig is ridiculous...........and I respect that.....but I can sit and listen to that rig all day.
Vinyl can sound fantasic, but you have to have the patience and love for it like Joe has (you'll see it if you go there)
I respect the hell out of Vinyl, but know damn well I will never have the patience for it (and the gear that I've heard and liked, costs ALOT.
thats the heart of the vinyl and digital debate. I have heard both sound fantastic, so the "one is better than the other" debate is useless to me. I roll digital as it is an easier format to deal with and can get the sound I want without selling a kidney (that supercharger for my Mustang ain't gonna pay for itself ya know
) Living Room 2 Channel -
Wiim Ultra. Jolida CD player. Fiio k11 R2R DAC, XTZ as300 Edge amp. Focal Cobalt 826 towers,
Upstairs 2 Channel Rig -
Classe Audio 5 Preamp, DIY1200as2 Icepower Amp x 2, Wiim pro streamer and Topping E70 Velvet DAC, California Audio Labs DX1 CD player, Polk LSi15's with MM840 woofer upgrade.
Studio Rig - Scarlett 18i20(Gen3) DAW, Schitt Saga 2 preamp, Topping a90 headphone amp, Mac Mini, Audiophonics Hypex NC252m amp, Polk r200's -
Also another point for the digital lover, if you want to take your music along in the car well, vinyl is one of the rare format that could never be taken in your car (at least I speak for the normal average heatly people)DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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I have nothing to add except that I wouldn't mind hearing Joe's system....I know he's a big Vinyl fan. Also, I think it may have been easier to do vinyl when it was in its glory days and TTs and MM cartridges galore where available and any stereo amp maker worth its salt had a decent phono pre-amp stage in it. I remember listening to a couple of mid-grade systems that weren't particularly well thought out or tweaked, and you could 'easiliy' hear some of the differences between good vinyl and a good CD. (As said in another thread here..there are some CDs that are actually better than the vinyl due to mastering, etc. It's not always the case that every piece of vinyl is better...it is NOT!).
So I suspect that if you ran all 'vintage' equipment there might be 'less' of a synergy problem? What do you vinyl aficianodos think about that idea?
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
First off my door is always open to any Polkies who want to stop by and listen to my rig. Most likely I'll have some good eats too.
Thanks for the kind words about my vinyl rig.
Louie, you need to get over here, I've done some upgrades that will make you want to move in with us!:D
CNH you are right to certain degree. Back in the '80 when vinyl was king it was easier to put together a starter rig as all preamps back then were made for vinyl first, some better than others, so they put in all the necessary ingrediants to accomodate any MM or MC cartridge. Once the digital age kicked in, manufacturers were just putting out line stage preamps.
Now-a-days, with new technology in TTs/Tonearms/Cartridges as well as really good standalone phono preamps, it can be harder to get the synergy thing going simply because there is one more component and cable in the signal path. But that can be a good thing too. The turntable technology has improved the quality of the TT with different and in many cases better isolation, motors, belts, etc. the same with tonearms but the biggest jump in technology has taken place in cartridges. There are much better stylus types, better cantilever materials, better suspension and better MM & MC pickups, etc.
Most preamps that I have audtioned including my beloved Tri-Vista that have phono stages in them just plain suck. They were put into the piece as a courtesty for their customers and no real good components or technology was used. Stand alone phono preamps are the bomb as they've taken the attitude of the manufacturers of the '80s and put everything one could possibly need quality wise and feature wise in the phono pre as it has just one function, to play vinyl. Also, many, many cable manufacturers have come up with really good phono cables which back in '80s were few and far between because most phono cable were hard wired into the tonearm. Now you can switch them out to find the right cable to synergize with the cartridge and phono state. Another plus is that most turntable manufacturers now in all but their bare bones starter tables come with some kind of clamping system and better platter mats if they aren't using delrin or acrylic as the platter.
James there is a lot to consider when putting together a vinyl rig. You can do it on a budget and come out with a great sounding vinyl rig but it takes some doing to get the right components of the vinyl rig together. If you come to my house and we get to sit and listen and BS, I can lead you in the right direction to get a good vinyl rig going on a realitively low budget. I can tell you this, once you get your vinyl rig and processing down it can be one the most rewarding music playback systems you'll ever experience. -
I would love to hear Joe's vinyl rig as well.The SME V is a mechanical work of art and I bet it and the VPI are a wonderful combo.
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Joe's vinyl rig is awesome...a lot of time, money & love have gone into it. I just melt in the chair, kick back & enjoy the tunes. As good as it sounds though, I really don't get my toes a tapping & my swag on until he puts his iPod dock on!!!
:eek::p -
pearsall001 wrote: »Joe's vinyl rig is awesome...a lot of time, money & love have gone into it. I just melt in the chair, kick back & enjoy the tunes. As good as it sounds though, I really don't get my toes a tapping & my swag on until he puts his iPod dock on!!!
:eek::p
WAAAAAAAAAA you've been drinking this early in the morning Phil!:D -
hearingimpared wrote: »WAAAAAAAAAA you've been drinking this early in the morning Phil!:D
Nah!!! just breaking them my friend!!!
Happy Memorial Day!!! -
pearsall001 wrote: »Nah!!! just breaking them my friend!!!
Happy Memorial Day!!!
Happy Memorial Day to you, Maria and Phil! -
One very important thing with vinyl is how you listen to it. The average Joe Blow throws on the first album he sees, notices the bass is not the unnatural electric sound he is used to from CD's and the highs do not cut through his head like sharpened spikes and thinks to himself "pfft, what a piece of ****" and moves back to CD's. What he missed if the setup is a good one was probably the balance of the performance, the alive midrange, the pace/rhythum/timing and everything else that is musical. Comparing to CD is not the way to go here because of its initial wow factor, even though it gets old after awhile. Every time I put on a CD I'm wow'd, for about a minute until I start missing everything else.Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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You might want to look at inspecting the stylus with a usb microscope. There is no way that you can inspect one with a magnifying glass or by eye. Check out my link for usb microscope stylus inspection and you will see what I mean.
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Here's a bit about me...I don't have 30k to put into a rig, or multiple rigs. I'm not into the techno mumbo jumbo, and don't have much interest in working very hard on it. I'm interested in great sound that is managable by someone who is not a technical person. I read the tube primer mhardy posted in another post, and my head is still spinning. I hear about USB microscopes and wonder if this is all really worth it. I'm sure for someone with a ton of money, time, and interest it is. Perhaps for me, someone who loves music, does music, but is in it for music, perhaps vinyl just isn't my thing. Another question - do they still make vinyl? Does today's music come out on vinyl? I love and listen to lots of 60's, 70's, 80's, classical, etc...most found on vinyl. Is it even made anymore?
Thanks,
James2 Channel/HT:
Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
Harman Kardon HK354
Sony SACD Player -
A usb microscope is $59.00 from buy.com. Yes they do make vinyl still. Here is a link for lots of records. They are not cheap like they used to be.
http://www.soundstagedirect.com/ -
Yes, in fact the below is one of the many sites that does:Another question - do they still make vinyl?
http://www.soundstagedirect.com/
Perhaps this is a possibity however, take HI up on his offer and see maybe you'll be surprised? Maybe he can provide you with simple hits tht might help you calibrate your TT? If you find vinyl is not your cup of tea is no biggy, I wouldn't surprised that most people that rave for vinyls are folks my age or even older that are actually nostalgic of the good old days. Maybe intriging for younger people but I guess most wouldn't adere to such tedious format.perhaps vinyl just isn't my thing.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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I have to agree with TK and defer to Joe (Hgimpd) above! Take Joe up on his offer. If you can't, wait and just come to Polkfest..you're in Jersey after all. He'll be there along with other vinyl guys.
Another idea would be to give GGrand another visit and ask him...he probably even has some stuff you could try out?
As for Mhardy's posts above, you gotta love the guy--he's a technophile at heart. Lots of great technical info from him a wonderful resource...but as we all know you can spin the numbers around and around but you've just got to hear for yourself in the end because they can't decide what things will actually sound like for you.
But if you have a pretty good head on your shoulders and you spend a few months reading technical manuals...it's not as daunting as it would seem. INTEREST is 9/10s of the battle. Watch ANY teenager playing a video game. Within a week they will KNOW more about that game than any of us...its ins and outs, tricks, secrets, etc. They LEARN it because they are INTERESTED in this. The same thing is true with technos--YOU LEARN WHAT YOU'RE MOTIVATED TO LEARN. Don't be intimidated by those guys, they're only here to help and there are a TON of things 'they' don't know because they don't care. Just like you are not particularly interested in technotalk. I respect that. But I would also respect 'your' opinion, James, on a piece of music a lot more than someone who knows mostly about the numbers and schematics, etc. So it works both ways.
It's like Ernest Becker once said, In a Democracy we need ALL kinds of citizens because by having as many differing points of view as we can we can get a better approximation of a reality that cannot ever be represented by one point of view alone! (that's a paraphrase but you get the idea).
That's what's great about this place. And why people like Joe would be your best bet. He knows the technical mumbo-jumbo but he can also 'speak' to you in a language that you will understand. You're in good hands....
And Mhardy...keep the science coming...I'm returning to the U.S and look forward to learning more about that. I was almost courted as an Engineer in my youth. I guess its time to 'recover' that part of myself 'here'? It is 'interesting' and something I'd like to know a bit more about, as well. There are MANY MANY sides to this hobby.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Here's a bit about me...I don't have 30k to put into a rig, or multiple rigs. I'm not into the techno mumbo jumbo, and don't have much interest in working very hard on it. I'm interested in great sound that is managable by someone who is not a technical person. I read the tube primer mhardy posted in another post, and my head is still spinning. I hear about USB microscopes and wonder if this is all really worth it. I'm sure for someone with a ton of money, time, and interest it is. Perhaps for me, someone who loves music, does music, but is in it for music, perhaps vinyl just isn't my thing. Another question - do they still make vinyl? Does today's music come out on vinyl? I love and listen to lots of 60's, 70's, 80's, classical, etc...most found on vinyl. Is it even made anymore?
Thanks,
James
In regards to vinyl still being around. Well there are people who enjoy the vinyl copy over the CD. Personally I like vinyl and enjoy listening to it. Is my rig super duper expensive, no but do I think I get a better sound out of it than a CD, yes.
Many bands still have LP's that come out. I have bands like A Perfect Circle, Nine Inch Nails, Deftones, AFI, Tool, Radiohead, ect ect all on vinyl. Some of the stuff is harder to come and only limited runs are made such as only 500 total copies ect. Why do they make it? Because there are people out there that want to buy it because they like it over a CD. The place I got most of my stuff from (brand new) the guy is in his 40's and all he listens to still is LP's. He likes how easy CD's are, but says he's into vinyl till the end and has the collection to prove it. A lot like the sound as well as just get into it.
You do have to take some time getting stuff set up though I think in order to enjoy. When I got my first table the old Technics I also thought, this doesn't sound as good as what I thought it would. Then I started to play around with stuff, got a different table, phono pre, and it started to come together. I learned that it does matter how the cartridge is set up and has a huge effect on the sound. It does take some time, and can be annoying at times, but in the end I enjoy it and think I will for a long time. -
Here's a bit about me...I don't have 30k to put into a rig, or multiple rigs. I'm not into the techno mumbo jumbo, and don't have much interest in working very hard on it. I'm interested in great sound that is managable by someone who is not a technical person. I read the tube primer mhardy posted in another post, and my head is still spinning. I hear about USB microscopes and wonder if this is all really worth it. I'm sure for someone with a ton of money, time, and interest it is. Perhaps for me, someone who loves music, does music, but is in it for music, perhaps vinyl just isn't my thing. Another question - do they still make vinyl? Does today's music come out on vinyl? I love and listen to lots of 60's, 70's, 80's, classical, etc...most found on vinyl. Is it even made anymore?
Thanks,
James
For the reasons you stated, vinyl is for you. It sounds more natural and as Chuck said, don't let the WOW factor of CDs sway you from the natural sound of vinyl. If you are interested in visit, I say again, the door is always open. -
You must come over to the dark side now that you are under our control. Resistance is futile.Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...






