I'm not impressed! What am I missing???????

Deathjester

You asked if Vinyl is still made??..

The simple answer is yes. But its not the same.
IMHO I dont think the headroom of today's vinyl compares to vinyl of the 80's; where the masters are an analog master.

You see, even though frequencies of a given range can't be 'heard' by human ears, their presence gives depth, ambiance and clarity. Analog masters and recordings are full spectrum. The vinyl of the 'vinyl age' was made from full spectrum master recordings.

CD recordings are a compressed format. They have been compressed to save space by cutting out the musical information above and below a certain frequency ranges. The industry argument; 'You cant hear them anyway'.

Most of todays recordings are made digital and compression goes in at the track level. Therefore masters used for stamping 'new' vinyl already are compressed. The headroom isnt there.. There are rare exceptions to this as to everything. But still doesnt compare to the Vinyl Age stuff..

If you are of any age and can remember how the music sounds and more over feels from that era; you struggle against the anesthetic clarity of today's recordings. I listen to new and current music and listening to it on CD is just fine by me. This is their era of music; it's part of their sound.
BUT.. if the groups of today would go into an old analog Capitol Records recording studio and lay a full spectrum master down, then play it on one of our vinyl systems, that we painstakingly preserve to reproduce vinyl era nirvana.. They wouldn't record any other way.

Just my humble opinion..

hearingimpared

My experience with newly released or rereleased vinyl tends to make me disagree with you. Unless the record is recorded in the DSD format which makes LPs sounds like SACDs, I've not encountered this phenomina you speak of but even recorded in the digital DSD does not cut off the full spectrum of sound.

LPs that are recorded from the DSD format although they don't have that open, airy sound to them (which I believe you are speaking about) but they give more weight to the music with the ful spectrum of sound.

Now what I have found to be true is that many new releases are compressed and they sound terrible. An example of this is, The Red Hot Chile Peppers - "Stadium Arcadium" four LP set. It is great music but sounds horrible due to the compression. Examples of relatively new artists who've released LPs that sound wonderful and have that analog sound of the open, airyness, are Maroon 5, The Shins, The Arcade Fire and many more.

Even the digitally recorded LPs of the '80s sound great and I don't believe they were in any, way, shape or form compressed. I have several recording, mostly classical music that is done in digital and put to vinyl and they raise goose bumps. Another example of a digitally recorded LP that sounds awesome and was the first rock LP to be done in digital is, Dire Straites - "Brothers in Arms." I have the original LP and the rerelease on 180 gm vinyl and it has that full spectrum open, airy sound.

There are several record labels that would sometimes compress their analog masters in the '80; one that comes to mind is Jethro Tull's "Benefit." I have several copies of it from different labels and I had to search around before I found a copy that was not compressed.

I think you are making a blanket statement here in that many of the newly released music is compressed and pressed to vinyl but I think that varies from label to label, artist to artist, recording engineer to recording engineer. A lot of this compression business has to do with recordings which are meant to be played on the radio. They compress the music to make it sound louder which to today's young inexperienced ears equates to better sound. UGH!

So on this matter I am going to have to agree to disagree with you.

madmax

hearingimpared wrote: »

My experience with newly released or rereleased vinyl tends to make me disagree with you. Unless the record is recorded in the DSD format which makes LPs sounds like SACDs, I've not encountered this phenomina you speak of but even recorded in the digital DSD does not cut off the full spectrum of sound.

LPs that are recorded from the DSD format although they don't have that open, airy sound to them (which I believe you are speaking about) but they give more weight to the music with the ful spectrum of sound.

Are you indicating here that SACD's do not have an open, airy sound to them? I neither agree nor disagree or really even care, just never heard this before.

hearingimpared

madmax wrote: »

Are you indicating here that SACD's do not have an open, airy sound to them? I neither agree nor disagree or really even care, just never heard this before.

Yes, but as I said they give more weight to the music IMHO! This of course is to my ears.;)

Just a quick example. I purchased a brand new, on heavy vinyl Rolling Stones "Let it Bleed" LP. I prepped it and played it. It sounded friggin awesome BUT I kept thinking to myself that it sounded like an SACD. I started to read the jacket and sure enough it was done is DSD. I then placed my old analog copy of the same on and it had that open, airy sound to it that analog has.

They both sounded really good but like I said before many times SACD and analog sound equally great, they just sound different.

Deathjester

Hearingimpared...
I completely agree with you and you obviously have delved deeper into the histories of more recordings than I. But as I stated above...

""Most of todays recordings are made digital and compression goes in at the track level. Therefore masters used for stamping 'new' vinyl already are compressed. The headroom isnt there.. There are rare exceptions to this as to everything. But still doesnt compare to the Vinyl Age stuff.. ""

I dont believe that was a 'blanket statement'.. I think I successfully stated that there are exceptions.. But there isnt near those numbers of that type of recordings as there were in the Vinyl era.
Im a trumpet player in the Metro Area here and have spent more hours in the recording studio than I can count. So I am not completely inexperienced in the process. Being a session artist allows me to work with a variety of artists and engineers. And in my experience compression on ANY recording is a norm. Not always; and you stated some great examples of the exceptions. And you are very correct depending what the recording is for; there maybe more or less compression used.
I only wish there was more recordings with full spectrum!!

Hey.. Ive got a question for you.. Have you had a chance to listen to a CD that was made from a full spectrum recording RIP'd from a vinyl album??
Ive been dinking around with 'remastering' vinyl and if you record it at maximum sample rate and lay it down loss-less it actually sounds pretty good.

~~Dj~~

hearingimpared

Deathjester wrote: »

Hearingimpared...
I completely agree with you and you obviously have delved deeper into the histories of more recordings than I. But as I stated above...

""Most of todays recordings are made digital and compression goes in at the track level. Therefore masters used for stamping 'new' vinyl already are compressed. The headroom isnt there.. There are rare exceptions to this as to everything. But still doesnt compare to the Vinyl Age stuff.. ""

I dont believe that was a 'blanket statement'.. I think I successfully stated that there are exceptions.. But there isnt near those numbers of that type of recordings as there were in the Vinyl era.
Im a trumpet player in the Metro Area here and have spent more hours in the recording studio than I can count. So I am not completely inexperienced in the process. Being a session artist allows me to work with a variety of artists and engineers. And in my experience compression on ANY recording is a norm. Not always; and you stated some great examples of the exceptions. And you are very correct depending what the recording is for; there maybe more or less compression used.
I only wish there was more recordings with full spectrum!!

Hey.. Ive got a question for you.. Have you had a chance to listen to a CD that was made from a full spectrum recording RIP'd from a vinyl album??
Ive been dinking around with 'remastering' vinyl and if you record it at maximum sample rate and lay it down loss-less it actually sounds pretty good.

~~Dj~~

Well you definitely have more experience than me in the studio that's for sure so you are right in that regard. I too wish there were more full spectrum recordings but that apparently is not the way of the world today.:(

As far as vinyl rips to CDs, our boy Keiko (Mike) has sent me dozens and I gotta tell most sound awesome. He's the guy to talk to about ripping from vinyl. I'm just a listener!:D

Deathjester

That's a great source, thanks.. As I am a newly indoctrined ripper!!..
I think they sound pretty darn good but I am always looking for more information and better ways of doing things.

Thanks!!

george daniel

I am going to have to ammend a comment that I made regarding vinyl in a previous thread,,, after a few adjustments/tweaks to my rig,mainly the phono stage,,I am leaning towards the "tone" of vinyl.I am finally having my expectations met,, now I'm moving on to a SUT for the phono stage,,stay tuned.:)

madmax

Yep, its all about the tone! Vinyl has the right qualities but it can be frustrating to put together a system that can pull them out.

hearingimpared

madmax wrote: »

Yep, its all about the tone! Vinyl has the right qualities but it can be frustrating to put together a system that can pull them out.

This is true if you are going to use separates on the table. Turntables like what VPI has been putting out with the whole package, is plug and play and that tone is realized immediately.

I lucked out with my heavily modded VPI HW 19 Mk IV. It seems the HW 19 series and SME tonearms are a natural match made in heaven. It took me a while and several trials to get the right cartridge but I got it down and going.

madmax

hearingimpared wrote: »

This is true if you are going to use separates on the table. Turntables like what VPI has been putting out with the whole package, is plug and play and that tone is realized immediately.

I don't know, I went through a lot of phono pre's before finding my sound.

george daniel

madmax wrote: »

I don't know, I went through a lot of phono pre's before finding my sound.

Yeppers-- so did I,, what did you end up with?

hearingimpared

madmax wrote: »

I don't know, I went through a lot of phono pre's before finding my sound.

george daniel wrote: »

Yeppers-- so did I,, what did you end up with?

I was speaking only of the turntable components. The phono pre, well now you've got a whole new ball of wax to take into consideration.

george daniel

For me,,it is a heavily modified Super it,,sonicaps and some good tubes,,,and I might add that Auricaps sound quite musical in the It too.:)

+1 on the "tone"

EFanning

madmax wrote: »

One very important thing with vinyl is how you listen to it. The average Joe Blow throws on the first album he sees, notices the bass is not the unnatural electric sound he is used to from CD's and the highs do not cut through his head like sharpened spikes and thinks to himself "pfft, what a piece of ****" and moves back to CD's. What he missed if the setup is a good one was probably the balance of the performance, the alive midrange, the pace/rhythum/timing and everything else that is musical. Comparing to CD is not the way to go here because of its initial wow factor, even though it gets old after awhile. Every time I put on a CD I'm wow'd, for about a minute until I start missing everything else.

[Referee holds arms straight up.]

Fongolio

hearingimpared wrote: »

Another example of a digitally recorded LP that sounds awesome and was the first rock LP to be done in digital is, Dire Straites - "Brothers in Arms."

I fully agree with all your statements Joe except this one. The first full digital rock LP was Ry Cooder's Bop Til You Drop.

Brothers In Arms showed the full potential of digital recording. Do you have the Robert Ludwig mastered version with his initials on the track run out? I have 3 vinyl copies and only one RL version and it blows the other two away. The SACD surround of this album is outstanding as well.

Kelvin

j allen

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Also another point for the digital lover, if you want to take your music along in the car well, vinyl is one of the rare format that could never be taken in your car (at least I speak for the normal average heatly people)

You haven't replaced one of your car seats with a TT setup yet? Get with it, man!

hearingimpared

Fongolio wrote: »

I fully agree with all your statements Joe except this one. The first full digital rock LP was Ry Cooder's Bop Til You Drop.

Brothers In Arms showed the full potential of digital recording. Do you have the Robert Ludwig mastered version with his initials on the track run out? I have 3 vinyl copies and only one RL version and it blows the other two away. The SACD surround of this album is outstanding as well.

Kelvin

Thanks Kel, I stand corrected but the point is still a good point!:)

I wish on the Ludwig mastered version.