The mother of all KT88/6550 has arrived

chargerman426
chargerman426 Posts: 419
edited November 2011 in Electronics
Or so I hope. Take a look at what tung-sol just released. Its a KT120 and is suppose to get big power out of a KT88/6550 spot. My question is will this work in the Cayin amp I'm looking at...


http://www.tubedepot.com/ts-kt120.html
If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited May 2010
    Yea, but how do they sound? I have yet to encounter a current production tube I care for in any designation. I had a pair of current production Tung-Sol 6SL7GT's that got rave reviews from everyone and I can't stand them. Any NOS 6SL7 tube sounds better to me, with the 1940's Tung Sol 6SU7GTY and 50's RCA "red base" 5691 being superb examples.

    Not bashing just reminding that it's about the sound not necessarily the power capabilities. Again just food for thought as the only current production tubes that are capable of giving older tubes a run for the money (vintage sound-wise) are the one's made on the old Bendix Aviation tube machines.

    Anyways just my .02c sorry for the slight derail.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • chargerman426
    chargerman426 Posts: 419
    edited May 2010
    I agree with your statement that NOS are better and thats what I run for my pre amp tubes. However the price of power tubes makes it way out of my price range especially if I need 8 like I would in the new mono blocks I'm plaining on getting. Have you heard the new Genalex Gold Lion tubes as they are suppose to be very good and this tube is from the same manufacture.
    If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited May 2010
    Maybe,, maybe not-- there are some good new production tubes that are reasonalby priced(power tubes) that I would say do very well for the money.It's all relative.I cannot afford NOS Mullard XF2's.Especially the way I am prone to go thru power tubes.;)
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited May 2010
    chargerman426 wrote: »
    I agree with your statement that NOS are better and thats what I run for my pre amp tubes. However the price of power tubes makes it way out of my price range especially if I need 8 like I would in the new mono blocks I'm plaining on getting. Have you heard the new Genalex Gold Lion tubes as they are suppose to be very good and this tube is from the same manufacture.

    Yeah, I hear you..............that's a great point that I hadn't thought of. My brother has a pair of BAT VK-60 mono's and I give him a hard time about running the Russian 6SN7's as drivers for the big Russian 6H30 power tubes until I realize he'd need (16) vintage 6SN7's...............that's a LOT of dough to spend.

    So yes, that's a very good point on the power tubes vs. cost benefit of re-tubing with vintage NOS tubes.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited May 2010
    here you go




    http://dynacotubeaudio.forumotion.com/basket-f2/new-tungsol-kt120-output-tube-for-dynaco-amps-first-impressions-on-4-16-10-t325.htm
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • doctorcilantro
    doctorcilantro Posts: 2,028
    edited May 2010
    This tube will push even my Amplitrex to the limit of its testing capabilities. I have one on order for testing evaluation only, not sonics.
    For Sale 2019:
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  • chargerman426
    chargerman426 Posts: 419
    edited May 2010
    I'm just wondering if this tube is going to be ok in my monoblocks. It sounds as if they need more power then the average tube. Any input on that front
    If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.
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  • toucanet
    toucanet Posts: 581
    edited August 2010
    doctorcilantro / chargerman426,

    Any updates to report about your experience with this tube?

    Several of the tube vendors have said that my Rogue mono blocks can handle the extra power required to use this tube. I've also sent an email to the manufacturer of my blocks to find out if they can handle the needs of these tubes.

    I'm assuming that the increased power of the KT120's will give increased bass response and clarity, and increase the overall headroom for very clean, detailed tone. Emphasis on assume since I am still very new to the tube experience.

    However, I want some kind of assurance from (mono blocks) manufacturer before I buy 12 of these tubes.
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  • chargerman426
    chargerman426 Posts: 419
    edited August 2010
    I haven't tried the KT-120 yet as I don't run tube amos in the summer time. But I called Prima-Luna who makes the tube mono blocks I think I'm going to buy and the guy was listening to the tube while I was talking to him. He said they worked fine and sound great. I would definitely find out from Rogue what they think before I would spend as much money as it will cost you for 6 pairs.
    If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,877
    edited August 2010
    I am working on my own tube amp using this tube, and with the help of a couple people, I am hopeful I will have a pair of unbelievable monoblocks when I am done. One of the guys helping me with this says the '120's are among the finest tubes out there.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson

    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,877
    edited August 2010
    chargerman426 wrote: »
    I haven't tried the KT-120 yet as I don't run tube amos in the summer time. But I called Prima-Luna who makes the tube mono blocks I think I'm going to buy and the guy was listening to the tube while I was talking to him. He said they worked fine and sound great. I would definitely find out from Rogue what they think before I would spend as much money as it will cost you for 6 pairs.

    I would give Rogue a call and ask them what their recommendation is. My understanding is that the output transformer may need to be changed to handle the 120's. Without the change, the tubes would be choked back a bit and not operate at their full potential.

    I am a tube-nube so I could be wrong.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson

    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2010
    Ayon tested them in their amps, but found their sonics inferior to the GL KT-88.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,877
    edited August 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Ayon tested them in their amps, but found their sonics inferior to the GL KT-88.

    Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't Gold Lion's worth their weight in gold?

    I know they are regarded as among the elite, but I don't think I could afford them.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson

    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2010
    Some of their amps come with GL from the factory.

    I should be getting my ears on this soon.

    Triton_Hpt_03.jpg
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,935
    edited August 2010
    these are gold lion reissues, not the originals.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2010
    I assumed that was a given, sorry if I mislead anyone.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • doctorcilantro
    doctorcilantro Posts: 2,028
    edited August 2010
    Sorry for the delay. I'll let you know when I hear something about testing this tube. I know there are a few reviews around on it, and it should fall within the testing ability of the AT1000 (just have to make sure).
    toucanet wrote: »
    doctorcilantro / chargerman426,

    Any updates to report about your experience with this tube?

    Several of the tube vendors have said that my Rogue mono blocks can handle the extra power required to use this tube. I've also sent an email to the manufacturer of my blocks to find out if they can handle the needs of these tubes.

    I'm assuming that the increased power of the KT120's will give increased bass response and clarity, and increase the overall headroom for very clean, detailed tone. Emphasis on assume since I am still very new to the tube experience.

    However, I want some kind of assurance from (mono blocks) manufacturer before I buy 12 of these tubes.
    For Sale 2019:
    Tortuga Audio LDR passive preamp
    Decware EL34 amp
    Allnic H-1201 phono
    Zu Union Cubes
    iFi iDSD DAC, .5m UBS, iFI Gemini cable, Oyaide Tunami XLR 1.3M, Oyaide Tunami Speaker wire 1.5M, Beyerdynamic DT1990 headphones, PS Audio P3 power center

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  • janmike
    janmike Posts: 6,146
    edited November 2011
    I am thinking about trying these KT120 tubes in my ARC VS115 amp. A number of folks have tried these tubes with this very same amp with great results. Where do you folks purchase your tubes? I am looking for a reliable dealer. Anyone use Upscale Audio?
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
    NORTH of 60°
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  • doctor r
    doctor r Posts: 837
    edited November 2011
    Upscale has a very good reputation. Jim McShane is also excellent and I have done many transactions with him, but I am not sure if he is stocking the KT120s.
    http://www.mcshanedesign.net/
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  • janmike
    janmike Posts: 6,146
    edited November 2011
    Thanks for the link doctor r. I will ping Jim and see if he stocks these.
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
    NORTH of 60°
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited November 2011
    This is an old thread. But I have a question for the Tubistas! Are you telling me that modern technology 'cannot' reverse engineer any NOS tube that is ancient tech from the 50s, 60s? Because that 'is' hard to believe!

    Take it apart, do a materials analysis, reproduce it. Seems pretty straightforward. Is it just that current manufacturers are cheaping out, or what? It's not like we're looking for the Higgs boson particle here!

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,502
    edited November 2011
    cnh wrote: »
    This is an old thread. But I have a question for the Tubistas! Are you telling me that modern technology 'cannot' reverse engineer any NOS tube that is ancient tech from the 50s, 60s? Because that 'is' hard to believe!

    Take it apart, do a materials analysis, reproduce it. Seems pretty straightforward. Is it just that current manufacturers are cheaping out, or what? It's not like we're looking for the Higgs boson particle here!

    cnh

    I don't know the answer, but the only thing that comes to my mind, "Is there a modern-day equivalent to a Stradivarius?"
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  • chargerman426
    chargerman426 Posts: 419
    edited November 2011
    janmike wrote: »
    I am thinking about trying these KT120 tubes in my ARC VS115 amp. A number of folks have tried these tubes with this very same amp with great results. Where do you folks purchase your tubes? I am looking for a reliable dealer. Anyone use Upscale Audio?

    I like TubeDepo and I would never purchase anything from Upscale Audio again. I bought my PrimaLunas from there and every time I would ask about trying tube A or B in it since its "a tube rollers dreams" and he says if you brake it your screwed.
    If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited November 2011
    cnh wrote: »
    This is an old thread. But I have a question for the Tubistas! Are you telling me that modern technology 'cannot' reverse engineer any NOS tube that is ancient tech from the 50s, 60s? Because that 'is' hard to believe!

    Take it apart, do a materials analysis, reproduce it. Seems pretty straightforward. Is it just that current manufacturers are cheaping out, or what? It's not like we're looking for the Higgs boson particle here!

    cnh

    No it can't. Part of the reason is much of the precison machinery was destroyed (with some exceptions), much of the human skill no longer exists. I believe this is one area that perhaps 100% automation is a detriment. The biggest factor is lack of materials used from in the day. Materials either aren't as pure because they are not available or it would be cost prohibitive to make them 100% pure. I believe it's a combination of both. Many of the original processes aren't used because of health and environmental issues so "substitute" processes have to be used. I believe some of the chemicals and processes of today, which no doubt are better for the environment, are compromised and not as good as back in the day. And let's face it, tubes are a very small piece of the pie and the idea is to maximize profits which means cutting corners compared to the days when tubes were in their heyday.

    Your analysis of what to do is a sound one but no one would be able to afford the tubes if we tried to painstakiningly recreate what was done 40-50-60 years ago. Remember there were some aviation and military firms back in the day that over engineered some tubes and they were extremely expensive back then compared to going to your local TV/Radio repair shop or discounter to replace a tube.

    Just like you can't recreate a 1958 Les Paul or a Stradivarious or a Ferrari 250 GTO, no matter how good our technology is today, it's the technology that kills it sometimes. It's too perfect, it ends up being soul-less
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited November 2011
    There are some tubes (like power tubes) that come close, but still not the same as an original. But I think you'll find these have been in production for years and the company has had all kinds of opportunity to tweak them and with volume comes willingness to improve materials and manufacture. One such power tube that comes to mind is the Winged C EL34. Very nice tube, has characteristics of the original Mullard..........not the same however. But it has proven to be reliable and balanced and a pleasure to listen to. They are also amongst the most expensive EL34's of current production. I believe the average price per pair (new) is around $75 when JJ's or EH's are around $35.

    I have a pair of 1980's Philips JAN ECG 12AX7's that sound absolutely horrid and these were still made on Philips machinery. Ever heard any of the late 70's early 80's Amperex made by Richardson Electronics compared to a 60's Amperex made on the same machine. Horrid, simply not worth the glass and metal materials. In both those cases I believe profit was a motivator and in the case of the Philips tubes those were made for military machinery so "sound quality" wasn't in the equation. About 5-10 years ago the gov't flooded the market with the Philips JAN ECG tubes and they were used as NOS in almost every tube amp that took tubes because they were plentiful and cheap and the seller could say "they come with NOS Philips tubes". The gov't had a huge surplus they no longer needed. Those tubes were never produced to be used in the hi-fi market, they were produced to be used in military gear.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited November 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Remember there were some aviation and military firms back in the day that over engineered some tubes and they were extremely expensive back then compared to going to your local TV/Radio repair shop or discounter to replace a tube.

    Actually I have to correct myself here..............tubes from places like Bendix and Red Bank RCA, etc weren't really available to the public at the time. It wasn't until later that they were released for public consumption.

    Also think about how glass was made in the 40's and 50's..........the process today is completely different. That's just one small parameter of the tube process. Sometimes it doesn't pay or you can't go back to fo things like they did in the past.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited November 2011
    I have used upscale audio. The tubes I recieved (1959 Pope 6V6's) were in absolute phenominal condition and tested, sounded great! I would recommend them without hesitation. Also, I would recommend Brent Jesse without hesitation, but am not too sure he sells the KT120's. I could be wrong though as I have not looked into these tubes.

    Greg
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • chargerman426
    chargerman426 Posts: 419
    edited November 2011
    headrott wrote: »
    I have used upscale audio. The tubes I recieved (1959 Pope 6V6's) were in absolute phenominal condition and tested, sounded great! I would recommend them without hesitation. Also, I would recommend Brent Jesse without hesitation, but am not too sure he sells the KT120's. I could be wrong though as I have not looked into these tubes.

    Greg


    They do still doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't give him any more of my money but that just me.
    If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,674
    edited November 2011
    There are some tubes (like power tubes) that come close, but still not the same as an original.

    Shuguang Treasures....better than the originals.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited November 2011
    chargerman426 wrote: »
    They do still doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't give him any more of my money but that just me.

    What was wrong with your transaction(s)? Also, are you refering to Upscale Audio or Brent Jesse?

    Greg
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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