Just picked up a Technics SL-1200mk2 turnable. Some questions!

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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 7,469
    edited March 2010
    Depends how much you value your vinyl...I wouldn't play any of my premium stuff with it. If you have nothing but thrift store records, then I wouldn't worry too much.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited March 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    While I sort out which stylus I want to upgrade to, would the Shure SC35C be ok to listen with for now? Or would it put unnecessary wear on the vinyl? Thanks!

    You'd get the same wear on the record if you used a nail.:D Bill's to polite to say it bluntly!
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited March 2010
    Alright guys, you have convinced me to get a new cartridge haha. I placed an order for the M97xE at JR.com for $57 after bing. It's temporarily out of stock so I hope it comes soon.

    Thanks for all the advice regarding the Denon DL160, it's just too rich for me right now. Maybe in the future. :)

    Fronts: Energy RC-70
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited March 2010
    Now that I've ordered a cartridge, what's the next best thing to improve performance? Go with a Herbies slipmat? Since the knock against direct drive turntables is motor noise, would that be the next best performance enhancement for the dollar?

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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited March 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    Now that I've ordered a cartridge, what's the next best thing to improve performance? Go with a Herbies slipmat? Since the knock against direct drive turntables is motor noise, would that be the next best performance enhancement for the dollar?

    I would go with a Clearaudio Record Clamp. It will make the most dramatic improvement. DO NOT buy the Clearaudio clear clamp for $30 as it is a total waste of money.

    http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/36249/Clearaudio-Twister_Clamp-Record_Mats_and_Clamps

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CLTWICL

    I would also consider using Dynamat Extreme to keep the motor noise down. Be careful using it on the motor housing as it may cause it to heat up. You would do best to call Technics CS and ask if it will indeed cause it to heat up if encased in the Dynamat.

    You can even Dynamat the underside of your platter being careful not to unbalance the platter with odd shaped cut outs of Dynamat.

    You may cringe at the idea of spending $100 on the clamp but I know of what I speak and it will transform the sound of your records dramatically and worth its weight in gold.
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 7,469
    edited March 2010
    The SL-1200mk2 plinth and the bottom side of the platter are already filled with in a dense rubbery dampening material. That is why it does so well in loud dance club environments. I don't think it is a good candidate for dynamat. As far as tweaks, I know I've linked KABUSA already, but they really are the best source for SL-1200 tweaks and upgrades.

    Honestly, I'd just use it as is for now. Get a record clamp down the road after you've used it for a bit, then you will appreciate it more.

    Overall, I'd agree that a record clamp is the most significant upgrade, even more than a step up in cartridges.
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited March 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    You'd get the same wear on the record if you used a nail.:D Bill's to polite to say it bluntly!

    That cart comes with a spherical stylus, so it's not going to wreck the discs too fast and most the wear won't be where the one's we're recommending would sit. So I wouldn't worry too much about it for now. Just don't play your favorite vinyl 800 times with it. Oh, and bring the stylus weight down to the minimum that'll keep it on the record.

    Update on the dust cover: I'm pretty sure an ex has it and she's out of the country for a few months, so if anyone sees a steal on one, let him know.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited March 2010
    billbillw wrote: »
    The SL-1200mk2 plinth and the bottom side of the platter are already filled with in a dense rubbery dampening material. That is why it does so well in loud dance club environments. I don't think it is a good candidate for dynamat.

    Agreed, I've stripped a 1200 down to bare metal and the dampening in there is impressive. I also would recommend against adding mass to the platter via dynamat- you're more likely to unbalance it than you are to gain anything there. A good heavy rubber mat would probably accomplish this better; you might need to adjust the brake after adding the weight. IIRC, there's a screw pot under the platter for this. Too much and it'll backspin when you hit stop; too little and it'll keep going for a bit after you hit stop.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited March 2010
    unc2701 wrote: »
    That cart comes with a spherical stylus, so it's not going to wreck the discs too fast and most the wear won't be where the one's we're recommending would sit. So I wouldn't worry too much about it for now. Just don't play your favorite vinyl 800 times with it. Oh, and bring the stylus weight down to the minimum that'll keep it on the record.

    I was just kidding about the nail.

    As long as the cartridge is setup properly and the null points are set just right there should be no problem. What causes record wear is mistracking. Most people think it's having too heavy a down pressure and this is a myth but dirt and mistracking are what causes the most record wear.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited March 2010
    billbillw wrote: »
    The SL-1200mk2 plinth and the bottom side of the platter are already filled with in a dense rubbery dampening material. That is why it does so well in loud dance club environments. I don't think it is a good candidate for dynamat. As far as tweaks, I know I've linked KABUSA already, but they really are the best source for SL-1200 tweaks and upgrades.

    Honestly, I'd just use it as is for now. Get a record clamp down the road after you've used it for a bit, then you will appreciate it more.

    Overall, I'd agree that a record clamp is the most significant upgrade, even more than a step up in cartridges.
    unc2701 wrote: »
    Agreed, I've stripped a 1200 down to bare metal and the dampening in there is impressive. I also would recommend against adding mass to the platter via dynamat- you're more likely to unbalance it than you are to gain anything there. A good heavy rubber mat would probably accomplish this better; you might need to adjust the brake after adding the weight. IIRC, there's a screw pot under the platter for this. Too much and it'll backspin when you hit stop; too little and it'll keep going for a bit after you hit stop.

    Do either you two fellas know what the damping material is?

    BTW if you can cut a piece of Dynamat in a perfect circle to match the bottom of the platter it WILL help deepen the bass and lower the noise floor thus producing better bloom and decay as well improving inner detail. That is assuming the bottom of the platter is flat. If it is ridged then I wouldn't recommend using the Dynamat as it would throw the platter out of round. I'm also assuming that the direct drive motor is strong enough to take the extra mass without damaging the motor.

    The underside of my platter is flat and I was able to cut a perfectly round piece of Dynamat and adhere it to what was already a pretty much dead platter with even better results.
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 7,469
    edited March 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Do either you two fellas know what the damping material is?

    BTW if you can cut a piece of Dynamat in a perfect circle to match the bottom of the platter it WILL help deepen the bass and lower the noise floor thus producing better bloom and decay as well improving inner detail. That is assuming the bottom of the platter is flat. If it is ridged then I wouldn't recommend using the Dynamat as it would throw the platter out of round. I'm also assuming that the direct drive motor is strong enough to take the extra mass without damaging the motor.

    The underside of my platter is flat and I was able to cut a perfectly round piece of Dynamat and adhere it to what was already a pretty much dead platter with even better results.

    Joe,
    The SL-1200 uses a bonded dense rubber all through the plinth and on the bottom of the platter. The bottom of the platter is not flat by any means.

    BTW, you mean to tell me you added dynamat to the bottom of your VPI MkIV platter? WTF? That thing is so ridiculously dense and acoustically dead to start with. Talk about overkill.
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited March 2010
    The underside on mine is ridged, but there's probably some variety over the years. There's also a magnet under there at the center (you could work around this). The motor can handle the weight, no problem, but the brake might not not work as intended (not that you'd need it for this kind of listening). With a heavy mat and a weighted clamp, mine wouldn't get the instant stop that you expect from a technics.

    There's two different rubber materials on the technics base, one a hard rubber, one softer, both pretty heavy. The feet also combine hard and soft rubber.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
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    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited March 2010
    billbillw wrote: »
    Joe,
    The SL-1200 uses a bonded dense rubber all through the plinth and on the bottom of the platter. The bottom of the platter is not flat by any means.

    BTW, you mean to tell me you added dynamat to the bottom of your VPI MkIV platter? WTF? That thing is so ridiculously dense and acoustically dead to start with. Talk about overkill.

    Actually it is a TNT platter which is a composite of delrin and aluminum with a lead ring. I just checked it and I put Dynamat on the underside of the acrylic/steel plinth and a round sheet of Sorbothane on the underside of the platter. Brain cells are dying at an alarming rate!:eek:

    Bonded rubber isn't all that good of a damping material just as it is lousy for using by itself as isolation footers. I wonder if one could do better encasing the motor with Dynamat on top of the rubber? I know, I know tweak-a-holic!:eek:
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  • rayslifecycle
    rayslifecycle Posts: 511
    edited March 2010
    Edit - Sorry- I didn't read the second page before posting - congrats on the table -

    Rock On

    Ray
    http://rayslifecycle.blogspot.com/
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited March 2010
    Looks like J&R will get their next shipment of Shure M97xE in May, but they're taking orders now for them. If anyone is interested they should put in an order now. :)

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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
    edited April 2010
    ben62670 wrote: »
    It really is that much better for the price difference.

    Edit: I tried both carts on the same table.

    +1 on this. I've tried them both on the 1200 also and the DL-160 is definitely the way to go. Oops I posted this before I saw you got the Sure. The M97 and the Technicss sound great together also. As far as your next tweeks, get the Clear Audio Clamp or the new KAB clamp for the 1200 as the others have suggested and definitely get the Herbie's Mat. You want be disappointed in either.
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited April 2010
    Dawgfish wrote: »
    +1 on this. I've tried them both on the 1200 also and the DL-160 is definitely the way to go. Oops I posted this before I saw you got the Sure. The M97 and the Technicss sound great together also. As far as your next tweeks, get the Clear Audio Clamp or the new KAB clamp for the 1200 as the others have suggested and definitely get the Herbie's Mat. You want be disappointed in either.

    maybe next time :)

    Fronts: Energy RC-70
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited April 2010
    Hey guys, just got the turntable set up and starting playing a record. Sounds pretty good! The thing I noticed right away with the SC35C cartridge is that mids are a bit muddy and it lacks high end extension. Also seems like mid bass is a bit overexagerrated. Definitely looking forward for the M97xE to come!

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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    Hey guys, just got the turntable set up and starting playing a record. Sounds pretty good! The thing I noticed right away with the SC35C cartridge is that mids are a bit muddy and it lacks high end extension. Also seems like mid bass is a bit overexagerrated. Definitely looking forward for the M97xE to come!

    You gotta get a clamp Bro. It will transform the sound dramatically.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    This and the Herbie's, Way Excellent turntable mat. ;)

    http://herbiesaudiolab.net/ttmat.htm

    Mike, honestly which do you think will have more impact and improvement on the sound . . . A CLAMP! No?
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    Absolutely, if we're not taking the cartridge into account first. The Herbie's mat will also enhance the sound further when used with a clamp.

    Indeed, you will get no argument from me that if you don't have an acrylic or delrin platter a good mat "Hebie's", carbon fiber, etc will get you more detail, bass and a blacker backround amoung a few other improvements but without a good clamp, a mat or any other tweak to a turntable is a moot point.
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited April 2010
    Is that Clearaudio twister clamp the cheapest one I should go for? That's a lot of money for me to put down on a piece of metal

    Fronts: Energy RC-70
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,995
    edited April 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    Is that Clearaudio twister clamp the cheapest one I should go for? That's a lot of money for me to put down on a piece of metal

    Worth every penny and then some. IMO
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    Is that Clearaudio twister clamp the cheapest one I should go for? That's a lot of money for me to put down on a piece of metal

    It's not just a piece of metal Bro. It is a well designed piece to get the most out of warp removal and damping of your records and makes a dramatic improvement in SQ. It is made of delrin, brass and stainless steel. For $100 that particular clamp is a steal.
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  • RCFGuitars
    RCFGuitars Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    Is that Clearaudio twister clamp the cheapest one I should go for? That's a lot of money for me to put down on a piece of metal

    I agree with these guys - it's the best bang for the buck improvement I've made.
    Primary System
    Polk Audio SDA SRS 2.3TL (RDO198,Sonicap/Dayton/Mills,CardasCCGR,Mye Spikes,DynamatX,Driver Rings,Ben's IC,Bi-Wired)
    Polk Audio CSiA4 x2 (C)
    Polk Audio FXiA6 (S)
    Polk Audio RTiA3 (RS)
    Polk Audio FXiA4 (FX)
    Epik Sentinel x2
    Yamaha RX-V3900
    Rotel RB-1090
    Rotel RMB-1095
    NAD C565 BEE
    Technics/KAB SL-1210M5G w/ Denon DL-160
    Parasound Halo P7
    OPPO BDP-83
    Panasonic TC-P65V10 65" Plasma
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    RCFGuitars wrote: »
    I agree with these guys - it's the best bang for the buck improvement I've made.

    Hey Bub, how are the shims working for you?
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  • RCFGuitars
    RCFGuitars Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Hey Bub, how are the shims working for you?

    Hey Joe - They are working great! They make that clamp even better, and it's made a big difference on some of my older/warped records. I was listening to the "new" Hendrix last night on 180g vinyl and I think it was the best sound I've ever heard from a TT ( at least in my home :) ) Thanks again Joe!
    Rich
    Primary System
    Polk Audio SDA SRS 2.3TL (RDO198,Sonicap/Dayton/Mills,CardasCCGR,Mye Spikes,DynamatX,Driver Rings,Ben's IC,Bi-Wired)
    Polk Audio CSiA4 x2 (C)
    Polk Audio FXiA6 (S)
    Polk Audio RTiA3 (RS)
    Polk Audio FXiA4 (FX)
    Epik Sentinel x2
    Yamaha RX-V3900
    Rotel RB-1090
    Rotel RMB-1095
    NAD C565 BEE
    Technics/KAB SL-1210M5G w/ Denon DL-160
    Parasound Halo P7
    OPPO BDP-83
    Panasonic TC-P65V10 65" Plasma
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    RCFGuitars wrote: »
    Hey Joe - They are working great! They make that clamp even better, and it's made a big difference on some of my older/warped records. I was listening to the "new" Hendrix last night on 180g vinyl and I think it was the best sound I've ever heard from a TT ( at least in my home :) ) Thanks again Joe!
    Rich

    You're most welcome Rich.

    Those little delrin disks really make a difference especially on the heavier vinyl but with the lighter vinyl it really makes it conform to the platter.
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  • Menasor
    Menasor Posts: 283
    edited May 2010
    Just wanted to give you guys an update. The M97xE finally came and I got it installed and aligned with the Stevenson Arc protractor. I gotta say I really dig the stabilizer brush on the Shure. It really helps with collecting dust in the grooves. I also got a Stylus force gauge and the proper stylus force now. I gotta say I'm very happy with the sound. I think this will hold me over for a while. :)

    Fronts: Energy RC-70
    Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Surrounds: Energy Veritas 1.0CM
    Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR705
    Amplifier: Denon POA-2200 w/ Ben's ICs


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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Menasor wrote: »
    Just wanted to give you guys an update. The M97xE finally came and I got it installed and aligned with the Stevenson Arc protractor. I gotta say I really dig the stabilizer brush on the Shure. It really helps with collecting dust in the grooves. I also got a Stylus force gauge and the proper stylus force now. I gotta say I'm very happy with the sound. I think this will hold me over for a while. :)

    That's great to hear! Have you noticed that with the stabilizer brush down, you can back off the down pressure a bit? It's a good thing to do with those types of cartridges and typically improves the sound.:) Give it shot, it may surprise you.
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